Of fishermen and farmers.....

[Glind]

All the debate about 30 to 50% closures from Lab/Greens and better management theory by the others has left me wondering about a few things.
I think a lot of the common sense and practicality has flown out the window, so I have had this thought.
Who are the most practical people in Australia? The answer is our farmers.
What have they got to do with fishing you may ask. Well it is not so much about fishing, but how they go about their business.
Farmers have a lot of land with which they must use their skills and intuition in order for them to maintain their livelyhood, and ensure it stays in first clas condition so it can be passed to the next generation.
How do they do it?
They don't just plant every square acre every year, or put more livestock on it so it is packed to the rafters. They use crop rotation, fallow ground (areas of ground left to rest and freshen up), and plant what is viable for that season. It is not rocket science but a learned thing, they are in touch with their environment.
Our farmers are renowned around the world as the best, so how come we as fishers can't take a leaf out of their books.
If the Government of the day said that farmers will have to lock up 30 to 50% of their land because of unsustainable practises or erosion or whatever, all farmers would go broke and we would all either starve or have to buy imported lesser quality food.
The farmers would be on the dole and for those who only know one trade expertly, it would impact heavily on their families and associated farming businesses.
So why can't we "farm" Moreton Bay?
What is wrong with management like rotation of prime fishing areas?
eg spell areas for a time etc
What is wrong with sustainable practises?
eg bag limits, size limits, seasonal no take times etc
What is wrong with people being able to access the best seafood in the world?
Nothing!
What would happen to those who rely on Moreton Bay and it associated industries for their livlehoods to be maintained?
Take a look what happened with the GBR closures and the $200+ million it has cost, not counting the cost to the family unit etc.
Closures and lock outs do not work.
What TFPQ advocates, sustainable fishing, fish for everyone etc and common sense from a grass roots level paints a larger picture. It is more than just fishing, the closures will have a huge impact on even those who have never held a fishing rod.
Don't forget common sense on Sept 9 and if you don't have a TFPQ candidate in your electorate, then there are other alternatives. Vote with your head, not with your heart.
If the economy of the SEQ corner is devestaed by closure of large sections of Moreton Bay, then hospitals, water, dams etc will be the least of your worries. Try tragic unemployment levels, family breakdowns and .....well I don't want to think about it.
Send the power brokers a clear message on Sept 9.
My thoughts, and analogies,
Tim

[Burley_Boy]

No offence but I thought the farmers already were on the dole and they had already heavily damaged land with excessive clearing and salinity.

But I'm all for commonsense and TFPQ, so go you little beauty :)

[stevedemon]

hi Tim_n
burley boy before comments like that the poor farmer is what keeps this country alive they work from before sun up to past sunset i have a great respect for them with out them we would not eat remember they are producers of meat, vegetables, fruit, bread from wheat, your alcohol, sugar, wool, milk, coffee, tabaco for those that smoke, product of all sorts remember the farmers are the back bone of this great country, and they are getting the raw prawn deal from government Departments ;D ;D go the farmers and stick it to the governments they need the water to produce our food

Cheers ;D ;D
Steve 8-) 8-)

[Glind]

Poor farmers are like any poor business man. Sooner or later they will go out of business, however, the vast majority are excellent at their craft. Especially the ones out my way.
My point is an analogy.
Farmers who flog the ground or business men who flog a company will always cease to exist. And so to will the land they farm or the business they had.
It is the same for us as fishers. We can no longer and do no longer have open slather on the Bay.
I'm all for sensible, practical management, but not a short sighted shut out.
It doesn't matter what you are in to, anything can stuff up, but there are ways and means of doing things, usually with a common sense approach is the best option.
By applying pressure on the power brokers of whatever ilk, that will hopefully bring the best for the Bay and the people who work it, fish it, enjoy it and so on.
There are 2 ways of doing things, the easy way or the hard way. The easy way is to lock it up and nobody wins and the hard way is a long termed management structure.
Go the hard way.
Didn't one politician once say "life wasn't meant to be easy."
The hard yards now is what will count for the future.
Good luck to all those out there who are having a crack on our behalf.
Tim

[puks]

Tim i like your analogy and i think its a very good one

when GTF came up witht he rolling closure thing ( which is still on the backburner for the time being )
i said the same thing to him about how farmes have one field empty and so on

but like has been said before by alot of members
the greens are not interested in alternatives that make sense
they want the easy way closures
so i guess what the tfp is doing is the good way make a stink
raise awareness
get a voice
the real work starts after the election for the fishing party

anya

[jim_farrell]

Not against the analagies here guys. However, I am against closures, rollovers, seasonal zoning, permanent zoning and changes in bag limits and sizes. On the grounds that there is not a fishing based zoning in queensland that is the result of sound science, that can prove that the area that has been zoned was under threat. The same science cannot prove that a closure to a certain reef will increase the number of fish on the reef as against increase the size of the resident fish on that particular reef. Lastly, I believe no comparison can be drawn between the northern closures as the species that live in the bay are nomadic or seasonal.
I will suport any zoning if somebody can prove to me that it is necessary and beneficial.
Jim

[puks]

well flick thats exactly it we need the real science and research

not what we have heard about the coral trouts at gbr ;)
unbiased scientific based proof
for or against as long as its sound

regards
anya

[Glind]

Or rather than some tarted up "research" or "science" study, why not have a consultation team consisting of well respected rec's and pro's, who know what is going on, the people who are on the water everyday, advising the process committee. Seems a bit to sensible doesn't it?
There is a lot of water out there and data such as forms filled out by rec or pro fishers can be made to look good, bad or indifferent.
If these people, who are going to be making the decisions on the Bay, listen to the people, we may be in with half a show.
However, politicians only seem to "listen to the people" in the lead up to an election, once they are in, look out.
Let's hope TFPQ has some real political grunt after this election wash up. They can only do that with support at the ballot box, it's a numbers game from here on in.
Tim

[choppa]

Not against the analagies here guys. However, I am against closures, rollovers, seasonal zoning, permanent zoning and changes in bag limits and sizes. On the grounds that there is not a fishing based zoning in queensland that is the result of sound science, that can prove that the area that has been zoned was under threat. The same science cannot prove that a closure to a certain reef will increase the number of fish on the reef as against increase the size of the resident fish on that particular reef. Lastly, I believe no comparison can be drawn between the northern closures as the species that live in the bay are nomadic or seasonal.
I will suport any zoning if somebody can prove to me that it is necessary and beneficial.
Jim


please,,,,,,,,,,, jim,,,,,,,,,,,, think b4 you post


your welcome to my library anyday

[stainless]

ZIGGY TELL THEM ABOUT BEATTIE'S PARADISE WATER DAM IN BUNDY !! ;)
CHARGING $800 PER MEG
THATS THE WAY TO GET RID OF FARMS ,MR BEATTIE >:( >:( >:(

[Jeremy]

Not against the analagies here guys. However, I am against closures, rollovers, seasonal zoning, permanent zoning and changes in bag limits and sizes. On the grounds that there is not a fishing based zoning in queensland that is the result of sound science, that can prove that the area that has been zoned was under threat. The same science cannot prove that a closure to a certain reef will increase the number of fish on the reef as against increase the size of the resident fish on that particular reef. Lastly, I believe no comparison can be drawn between the northern closures as the species that live in the bay are nomadic or seasonal.
I will suport any zoning if somebody can prove to me that it is necessary and beneficial.
Jim

I support this viewpoint 100%. There is no evidence that the current bag and size limits are not working. Remember that the new flathead and snapper bag and size limits only came into force 3-5 years ago and there is already evidence of improvement in these fisheries (anecdotal evidence from regular fishoes).

Jeremy

[Fisher_Boats]

I support this viewpoint 100%. There is no evidence that the current bag and size limits are not working. Remember that the new flathead and snapper bag and size limits only came into force 3-5 years ago and there is already evidence of improvement in these fisheries (anecdotal evidence from regular fishoes).

Jeremy[/quote]

Is it because fisherman are getting better ???? For example I used to fish Mud island religiously for years. A lot of people also wouldn't bother because they said it had been mined and was dead.
We used to get some nice fish on bait. Since everyone is flogging it with softies there seems to be quite a few fish being caught by everyone.
Is this because there is more fish or smarter ways too catch them. I don't think anyone really knows.
I'm with Timmy on this one mainly with the point of talking to the people who live on the water.
The biggest problem with the bay imo is water quality.

Cheers Col

[billfisher]

Tim_N,

Your analogy to farming does not hold up. The marine environment is fundamentally different to the terrestial one. Fish and their larvae are highly mobile and wide ranging. The also have tremendous fecundancy (reproductive capacity) compared to land bases creatures. The evidence is that large scale sanctuary zones are not an effective management tool and that they are likely to reduce the performance of the fishery. There is no hard evidence of the much touted 'spillover effect'. Even the greens don't believe in it going by some of their submissions. In the Port Stevens Marine Park they are already eyeing off areas still open to fishing as future sanctuary zones. Their justification is that the displaced fishing effort from the closed areas might lead to overfishing in the areas left open!

Fisheries management is best left to the proffessionals using using traditional techniques. The lying chareletons of the green movement have nothing to contribute in my opinion.

[Glind]

Hi Billfisher,
I think you may have misinterpreted my point. I'm totally against closures but am all for an effective "management" system if we are to have any sort of structure implemented by any party, which they will do. How they do it, I don't know, but my point was it needs to be done sensibly.
I agree that fishing and farming aren't the same thing, but it is an example of how some people manage a resource effectively.
As Col has said too and I agree, what better way to start a management program than by managing the rubbish that flows into the Bay.
Tim

[Glind]

Also, I'm not talking about "farming fish" if that is what you think I'm refering to :-?
Tim

[Fisher_Boats]

What I think Timmy is trying to say is what they come up with should be done in a smart way ..ie. talk to users of the bay...fishermen both pro and reco, crabbers, oyster farmers ect...... not unrelated scientific studies :-X

Col

[billfisher]

Tim_N,

Well you were talking about spell areas. This sounds like sanctuary closures by another name.

[Glind]

Yes Billfisher, on farms they do that, it is one management tool used as part of the "analogy", however I can't remember writting about sanctuary closures. I was refering to how other industries have implemented ideas that are workable and make those industries sustainable.
Don't try and make a mountain out of a mole hill, the idea of this thread was to demonstrate that if you look outside the square anything is possible. This is not happening with Lab/Greens short sighted proposed closures or lock outs, there are other workable options that should be considered if and when a Moreton Bay plan is devised. I don't know what these changes will be, or if the politicians will listen to us, your guess is as good as mine.
Tim

[Burley_Boy]

Poor farmers are like any poor business man. Sooner or later they will go out of business, however, the vast majority are excellent at their craft. Especially the ones out my way.
My point is an analogy.
Farmers who flog the ground or business men who flog a company will always cease to exist. And so to will the land they farm or the business they had.
It is the same for us as fishers. We can no longer and do no longer have open slather on the Bay.
Tim

This was my point, although I did not extrapolate but I got my shins kicked anyway. ;)
Although you will always find businessmen ripping off people and farmers flogging the guts out of the soil and Fishermen raping the oceans, but I find that altough you might hope they go out of business sooner or later its quite often later and the local farmer might be a great farmer but a crap businessman.
Anyway this is a sideline, farming today is not what it used to be it's now big business and many farmers have been driven off the land hence the reason they are on the dole in my earlier comment.