knot experiment

[wilcara]

Slow day today do as I was sitting in the shed I thought I'd experiment a bit. I usually tie a bimini or plait double in braid mainline and then a fluouro leader. I wondered how strong a uni knot would be for a quick remedy when the braid double breaks and is no longer a double.

Anyway, I tried doubling over the braid and making a uni knot connection for the join, that is uni knot in both, and found it to be as tight as... well, really strong, and can't get them to slip.

Question is, why bother with the bimini or plaid double at all? Does anybody use a uni to uni connection with braid with any success?

[tenzing]

I am sure that the knot books will tell you that it is not as strong, but the uni to uni knot works really well and is dead easy to tie on a rocking boat.
Doubling the braid does not make it much more difficult but I read recently that it doesnt really enhance the strength of the knot. Looks like you should when there is a big difference in the diameters though.
Certainly faster and I reckon you might find yourself tying less doubles now
Cheers mate
Brendan

[frankgrimes]

uni 2 uni get's my vote too - Never had one fail....although I'm not chasing marlin!

Mick

[wilcara]

Thanx guys... yeah I was wondering if it is a "size thing... " like does not work on heavier breaking strain as well as lighter?

[Noelm]

best thing about a uni to uni, it can be used to tie almost any size to any size, it is a very strong knot if tied carefully

[wilcara]

Another thing, as I just tried this yet again.... If you tie a double in the braid, then an Albright Knot to the leader, you have to double the leader over and tie the doubled braid loop to the mono right? Well after you have done that you have to trim it off, which means trimming off the loop, so you don't have a double anymore anyway.

Obviously here there is something I don't get, which is why tie the double to get a loop which you then cut off? If I tie the albright the other way with the larger mono to the braid loop I just made, they never hold, hence my experimenting.

I know there are easy ways around htis with crimps and swivels and stuff but I like knots and things and will never rest unless I know how to get this right!

Thanks for your help guys.

[deepfried]

Hey Wilcara,
I use uni to uni a lot and have never had a problem but like what Mick said i dont fish for marlin. The only time i double the braid over is when using a leader that is a lot heavier than my mainline. Also i just got to have a fish with Stonecold and watched him tie a double in my mainline and then tied the double with a uni to uni to the leader, in record time as well. It really showed me i have a lot to learn watching him. The mainline was 25lb mono and the leader 60lb mono.

Cheers
Scott

[wilcara]

That's what I don't get - why tie a double, then do a uni to uni, and then you trim it and cut the doubled loop off??????

[deepfried]

We still had a lenght of double after the leader was joined but i do get your point. One advantage i can see is to get a decent uni knot in the 25lb mainline. It is fairly fine in diameter compared to the 60lb leader and tied as a single may pull through the 60lb. I will ask Stonecold next time we head out. In the end though his experience is may more than mine so i will follow his lead. Perhaps some one else can fill you and me in.

Scott

[wilcara]

I understand doubling it over because of the diameter difference.... but why tie a bimini or plait then cut it off?

[deepfried]

Yeh i cant even do those knots and see them as too much trouble unless i was going to use wind on leaders, to me not worth the time in doing thne to cut tem off. Stonecolds knot was a lot easier. It took him about 15 secs to do. Not sure what the knot is called that he did but a damn lot easier than the others. Next time i head out with him i will ask what the knot is called. Double unis have always done me fine though land based or offshore bottom bashing.

[wilcara]

I've always been told to tie a double in braid, and done this before I go out. Trouble is the first time I drop it it usually gets bitten off by a toothy and doesn't come home again, and I get seasick by the time I have tied another one. I even tried taking spare spools so I could replace easily then began losing these too to the toothies. This is what lead to todays experimentation with something easier.

I did find that tying unis seemed to work as long as the entire mono uni was also over the doubled over braid; that is not just double on the braid uni but inside the mono uni also. To me this is going to be exactly what is there if you did tie a bimini then do this and trim the loop off.

Buggered if I know now!

[grave41]

I found the f.g.knot works best for me takes a little longer to tie but comes out like a wind on leader. Treid tying the p.r.bobbin knot with an empty plastic thread spool and came out a treat but you have to carry the bobbin holder with you.Also only wrap the line around the bobbin holder twice as any more and the tension is to tight to spin properly. these knots come out like wind on 's.they use these for jigging through to GT fishing. Various demo"s can be found on you tube.
Graham

[Hardb8]

Hi Wilcara,
Let's say the Uni is around a 70 - 80% knot when tied well.If you are using a 10lb main line with a Uni in it,Ya go down to say an 8lb breaking point.

If a true Bimini Twist (With no half hitches and a proper Rizzuto finish) is tied well,It is stated to be a 100% knot.Really it's a knot that's not a knot.....

Now that you have doubled the end of the mainline without weakening it by creating either a Bimini or Plait (Both 100% doubles),You have two strands of 10lb to tie to the leader.

If you choose the Uni as listed,Two knots will now be tied due to the double,And will (In theory) give us 16lb of strength at this knot.This is well above the single unknoted main line strenght of 10lb,And well above the results of the single 10lb mainline to leader connection with a Uni that will crack at around 8lb.If the double is tied well,And both Unis (Double to leader,And leader to double) are also well,You should now be fishing the full main line strength of 10lb.

The above paragraph/theory is an example,And was explained to me long ago.The theory,And the percentages I use for breaking strains are examples.They are not numbers to live by.

I myself doubt that when a Bimini in 10lb is connected to the leader via an Opposed Uni,It will make 16lb :-/ .I reckon it be more like 12-14lb.But as long as it's higer than the strength of the single main line the objective is achieved.Which is :- To retain 100% of the mainline strenght,And not lose any strength through tying knots.

It is true that when an Opposed Uni is used to connect leader to a double,The loop of the double is severed as the tags are trimmed.But this is irrelivant as you have achieved the objective by creating the two strand (Double knot strength) connection,Curtiousy of the double.The loop is not required by the Uni to be effective,And can therefore be disscarded.

There are however a few knots that require the loop to remain in tact though.One that comes to mind,And goes by several names,Can be refered to as either :- The Ducknose,The Braid Leader Knot,Or The Tony Jones Leader Knot.All the same knot,Just different names.Good one to learn,With a good breaking strain,And quite compact.I think this may be the knot Deepfried is refering to that takes about 15 seconds.

I must mention I used the Opposed Uni for years,With a Bimini to a single strand leader,Early in my career without a single failure.It is an easy reliable knot.When forced to break my connections on unretrievable snags,And also in testing,It was always either the single strand main line that let go first,And occassionaly the leader would part (Due to suspected combat abrasion).But never at the knots.

I then got a bad case of knot fever 8-) .......Researching,Learning,Practicing,And testing.I began using a Bimini with a Ducknose connecting my leader,In my pursuit of the ultimate connection.It too was a very good knot for me over several seasons of use.But my thirst for knowlege was unquenched,And still I kept looking.Again I moved on.Now it's Twisted leaders,Bionic Binds and a Perfection Loop.I have been using the last system scince the 06 season,Without knot failure.......But still I am looking.

I still use the Opposed Uni here and there to this day.....Even with a single main to a single strand leader,It's a great connection to know.

The Uni will be the first knot I teach my baby girl ;) .......Can't wait.;D

Hope I've been of some help. Regards. B8.:)

[nuggstar]

i only use uni to uni. never realy fails me so never needed to go looking for a nother knot. iv had lots of allbrites fail on me

[wilcara]

Hardb8 that is great, I think you answered the question! Of course, it is so simple once you explain it. Either way you end up with the same knot but the bimini has double the strands... Der!

I will have a practice of that brais leader knot today as it is in wilsons rig book.

And nuggster, you are right too. esterday I tied squillions of allbrights and tested them, just by hand not scales or anything. I found that while it is a straightforward knot, it seems easy to get wrong too. If the wraps arent perfectly aligned over each successive wrap evenly they tend to fail. Maybe not the knot to have to rely on if you do it in a hurry?

I'm thinking now in light of the above that the tied double with a uni might be the easy answer.. Tying those doubles still gives me the sh!ts though: in the boat anyway.

[Strewth]

Ted Donelans' leader knot with a minimum of 7 wraps. Needs a double in the braid but only has ONE tag end, which is that of the leader. The most compact knot I know. When tighening, make sure you pull on both strands of the leader and the mainline very hard to snug the coils to the top of the leader loop, then pull hard again on the single strand of the leader (not the tag end) and the mainline. Looks like an improved Albright but, as mentioned above, there is no tag end in the braid to slip through. It's in Geoff Wilson's knot book.

[wilcara]

Strewth I quite like the look of that, I'll go have a practice.

What I was looking for was not so much something generally easy because I can't tie knots, but something straightforward that is not hard to do in poor light in a rocking boat: there is a difference.

Thanks to all so far, I gain that the general consensus is that for any of these YOU HAVE TO TIE A BIMINI OR PLAIT DOUBLE IN THE BRAID FIRST?????????

[DR]

I tend to take a simpler approach, it's more important to me that the knot runs smoothly through the guides, so i go for a more compact knot. regardless of strength of finished knot.

I look at it along the lines of... when i see people fishing 30lb line with 60 lb leader, it's really only there for abrasion strength isn't it? the knot in the leader can come back to 50% strength before it's equal to the main line.
as an example only, what weight rods do most fish for Barra with, I can't imagine too much over 10kg would be any fun or be too easy cast all day with. So if your mainline knot loses 20% of it's strength it is still stronger than your gear is capable of handling, unless you point straight at the fish & skulldrag it in on some sort of a super reel.
So in theses days of lines being so thin for their dia. & people fishing strengths way above what most of their gear is capable of handling, unless you are fishing ANSA or a Game tournament, Which is a whole other kettle of fish, does knot strength really come in to it for most of us??

Wilcara, if like me you fall in the generalisation above, for your double, a Spider Hitch can be tied with your eyes shut & will do the job nicely..

[castlemaine]

i only use uni to uni. never realy fails me so never needed to go looking for a nother knot. iv had lots of allbrites fail on me

Thanks for the info Nuggstar, I went from a uni2uni to the Albright for ease of tying but I am new to braid. Will go back to uni2uni (I've seen some of your captures). Funny thing was that when I first started tying uni2uni, I didn't realise it was uni on one line to uni on the other, then slide the lines together. I tied the uni loops together and the knot kept failing till I went back to the text.;)
Cheers8-)

[wilcara]

Mmmmm... spider hitch eh..... back to the shed......

[Strewth]

Strewth I quite like the look of that, I'll go have a practice.

What I was looking for was not so much something generally easy because I can't tie knots, but something straightforward that is not hard to do in poor light in a rocking boat: there is a difference.

Thanks to all so far, I gain that the general consensus is that for any of these YOU HAVE TO TIE A BIMINI OR PLAIT DOUBLE IN THE BRAID FIRST?????????

To make it easy to thread the leader through the double, I hook one end of the double over my toe and wrap the main line around the other foot. Once it is threaded, release the loop and tease the knot into place before doing what I mention above. It is quite fast and easy to tie once you know how.

For the double, a 5-turn spider hitch gives you about 50% of the actual strength of the line in braid. I find that a simple overhand (granny) knot with 5 or more turns will give a fairly strong double too (but close it carefully so that the coils don't ride over one another). There is a lot of controversy about Biminis in braid, with tests suggesting that more twists dramatically reduces the strength. The tests reported in http://www.sportfishingmag.com/techniques/natural-baits-and-terminal-rigs/at-the-breaking-point-43557.html claim that a 12-turn Bimini is much better than a 40- or 60-turn Bimini. One of the problems with knots is that there is very little actual data to guide you, and the results are highly operator dependent.

[wilcara]

Right... spider hitch.... love it!

I note that Geoff Wilson stated that it only retains 40-60% of line strength which is quite low, but certainly is easy. funny how I never did one before, dunno why.

It would probably not replace a well tied bimini or plait but would be a much better option to repair a broken line in a rocking boat and get fishing again, thanks.

On heavy lines I still think I will be inclined just to cats paw a swivel to the braid if I don't need to wind it through runners though.

Its interesting how everyone seems to do something different too!

[Horse]

Its all very confusing. What should be best in theory does not always come out that way in practice:-/

The Uni to Uni is easy to tie but at best a 75-80% connection and even worse when the two lines differ in thickness. The double Centauri is easier, stronger and more versatile:D

Here is the Centauri
http://www.marinews.com/Double-Centauri-Knot-252.php
And the Uni
http://www.marinews.com/Double-Uni-Knot-267.php

[nuggstar]

i found a little trick with the uni that seems to make it keep its strength. i start by tyeing the heavier leader first. i do 4 raps then very slowly pull it half closed from the tag, not the other end of the leader. then i lube up with lots of spit then pull again from the tag end till it has started to form nice neet raps, pulling from the tag will make the raps form nice and neat and the tag will patrude out the end of the knot so it sits parallel to the main line and not sticking out to the side. once iv got the first knot finnished i pull from both ends of the line to lock it off (you may need to use ya nails to form the last bit so it neet and had no gaps, but not to tight just yet, again if the tag is running along the main line, you have it right. then i do 7 raps with the braid but again pulling from tag. then when you have both knots formed i lube up both knots again and verry slowly pull the two knots to gether then do the final lock off and a close trim of tags. i have tested both knots meany times with the tags runing paralel and sticking out and the paralel seems much stronger and go's thrugh the guides much better plus ya get less rod foul up by the tag sticking out and catching on braid when ya cast or rapping around one of ya guides in mid cast. if the tag sticks out cut if off and tye again. it makes a huge diffrence.

[wilcara]

OK nuggster I tried it today and yeah it seems to work well. So basically you are just making sure you pull the tags parrallel with the line and away from the knot?

And I tried the centuari too, it looks easier on paper than it is, the loops tend to go astray. Anyway with that aside, as it is maybe only practice, it does seem to hold real well and the tags are neat. I like it too.

[wilcara]

Loops? Sorry, been doing it wrong.

[Horse]

Centauri is easy if you pinch the loops between thumb and forefinger as you make each one