GBRMPA maps..ya got ta' laugh

[BladeRunner]

KC
Why should you be afraid to go out front when you have a coxwains ticket ?
I to have coastal navigation knowledge.( Nothing flash) Try satellite navigation now thats tough.For the norm nearly every one has a GPS don't get to technical, send me the maps you are refering to, copy me in . If the zones are in then thats the zoned area. Some Fishing Party. I am sure all fishos missed your point KC.

Ausfish Members.... If you have a GRIPE about the zones in your area then lets start a special post. Lets call it GBRMP,Take Over. Who's first on the board.
BladeRunner [smiley=bandana.gif]

[Kerry]

.... I don't know what the accuracy of a GPS is, but I think they are good to within a meter or so (less than the length of a boat). So that won't make any difference to the effective size of the green zones.

"within a metre or so" that's an interesting misconception. So would that be a metre or so all the time, some of the time or what? and if any of the time then which part of the time.

"less than the length of a boat" suppose depends on how ya boat is, doesn't it

If the custodians of GPS don't even guarantee an accuracy figure "on earth" (which they don't by the way) then really how can one guarantee ones position with respect to any zoning boundary.

With this, one has to understand what "guarantee" means in GPS terms and how a average user using the Standard Positioning Service (SPS) actually knows and can absolutely rely on their position.

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

I didn't get that email KC, or a PM. Perhaps you should post it up here so everyone can see. Or just link to the maps at the GBRMPA website.

If you use any of those fish measuring stickers they also say that they are a guide only and have no legal effect. They may shrink or expand by half a mm with temperature depending on what you stick them on, plus you can probably stretch the sticker or compress it (ie fold it a bit and get bubbles under it) when you stick it on. That doesn't stop people using them and no-one frets that they might get booked for having a fish a millimeter undersize.

Are the green zone depictions for the bays/estuaries on the maps wrong because of the cannon rule? Or is the map not fine enough to show the detail? Perhaps they just need more detailed maps. In any case I would just go by the maps. Fisheries say they have no legal effect, but they do. It's like most disclaimers. They are just to discourage people from suing in the first place, but in general they are not a limitation of liability. If you are allowed to fish somewhere going by the map but not by the official rules and you got booked for it you would take it to court and get off. Most likely they wouldn't bother prosecuting in the first place. They'd fix the maps instead. A little common sense goes a long way. Or if you want to stir them up you could find a place where the map says you can't fish but the rules say you can and fish there. You probably know more about the rules than fisheries do.

I didn't know that stuff about the spearing bans. Could you please post some links to more info on this. It would be a shame if it were true. A lot of people see spearfishing as even more brutal than line fishing, even though it has a lot of practical advantages for fishing sustainably.

[jockey]

I think they are accurate to within a meter or so all the time. But I don't know. Do you? Obviously the GPS companies won't give you a guarantee in case you try to steer your multi million dollar yacht with it. Remember that fisheries will probably be using the same GPS as you so if there is any confusion it will be to your advantage. You don't have to understand what 'guarantee' means, you just have to use common sense.

[Kerry]

I think they are accurate to within a meter or so all the time. But I don't know. Do you?
Within a metre? No certainly not, not using SPS, which is basically what most boaties/recreational users have to use. Most recreational receivers aren't even capable of displaying to a "within metre" precision, let alone be accurate to such.


Obviously the GPS companies won't give you a guarantee in case you try to steer your multi million dollar yacht with it.
The GPS companies don't have anything they can guarantee with as they don't own it, don't operate it or take any responsibility for it. They all have to work from the same specifications. GPS has no legality as a sole means of navigation and there is some very good reasons for this being the case.

Remember that fisheries will probably be using the same GPS as you so if there is any confusion it will be to your advantage.
Advantage could it? could just as easy be a disadvantage couldn't it and No fisheries may not be using the "same GPS capabilities".

You don't have to understand what 'guarantee' means, you just have to use common sense.
Meaning of "Guarantee"? Oh yes you do, otherwise you should stay home and play with your TV remote or some other appliance where you don't have to know what your doing or why your doing it or what it means.

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

So what precision do they display?

What do you mean by 'GPS has no legality...'? Where did you hear that?

Any confusion in the law or the technology used to enforce it works in the favor of the defendant. That's why we can do 110 in a 100 zone.

Kerry please define guarantee for me in terms of this discussion. Maybe then I will know what you are getting at.

[Kerry]

So what precision do they display?
Most have a resultant display precision to a little less than 3 metres but do not confuse "precision" with "accuracy".

What do you mean by 'GPS has no legality...'? Where did you hear that?
There are standards and guidelines for GPS use in Australia but these as yet DO NOT REPRESENT legal traceability under the Australian Measurement Measurement Act (1960) and GPS should not be used as a sole method of measurement for measurement within Australia. Some State and/or Territory departments have variations and supplementary clauses to this requirement in the context of "traceability" and connection to National and State control.

There are ways and means of providing "uniform and reliable validating of user systems" but the guidelines that cover this DO NOT PROVIDE legal traceability.

Similar in a navigation situation GPS is NOT APPROVED as a sole means of navigation under marine navigation orders.


Any confusion in the law or the technology used to enforce it works in the favor of the defendant. That's why we can do 110 in a 100 zone.
Ignorance is no excuse and very shortly you will only be able to 100 in a 100 zone as well, no excuse and this has already been basically tried as far as fishing in marine parks in Australia is concerned.

.... please define guarantee for me in terms of this discussion.
If one wants to really define things then in fact there is NO Guarantee with respect GPS.

There are "levels of performance the U.S Government makes available to civil users through the Standard Positioning Service (SPS)" but in reality this is not a guarantee.

In simple terms civil users are provided with a signal/service based on Signal-In-Space (SIS) specifications at a level which effectively can be controlled by the system's hardware and control structure. SIS specifications are values and definitions at the "satellite level" as being a space based systems the operators have absolutely no control over many of the things that can/will/do affect the signal between the satellites and the user, such as atmospherics both ionsphere and troposphere, delay effects, solar activity, obstructions, local terrain, interference, end user equipment, platform dynamics, user location and even the user themselves.

Even these SIS specifications have a statistical qualification so outside these specifications there is effectively no upper limit to the possible errors that do/will and have occured.

The thing with SPS GPS is any navigation/positions have no integrity in real time and so can not be guaranteed to be reliable or within specification 100% of the time, reliable 100% of the time being the key factor.

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

Do you know what the accuracy of GPS is?

What makes you think you will only be allowed to do 100 in a 100 zone soon?

What happened when 'it' was tried with regard to fishing?

Have there been any court rulings to back up what you are saying about the legal standing of GPS?

Where did you get that quote from?

No technology is 100% reliable. That doesn't stop law enforcement people using it. Fingerprints are a good example.

Perhaps you should just give us a link to the website(s) you are getting this from so we can make our own judgement.

[kc]

The reason I did not go out the front is the spots I would have liked to have fished are now zoned out. I don't have a GPS in the tinny and it is just not worth the risk. Imagine the PR delight GBRMPA would have at the head of the fishing party being caught poaching....no thanks!!

This thread, while wandering off the track a bit is actually demonstrating the very point made at the beginning....it is just too hard!! You are arguing back and forth about map and GPS accuracy, the way to fight IF/WHEN you end up in court etc etc. The average 3 times a year Mum, Dad & the kids just won't go!! Don't you get it. It is about depopularising the sport and pity help the poor buggers relying on it for a living.

Jockey I don't know why you didn't get the PM. Did you get the research papers? If not I will send them again. I have tried to post them here but it won't post. I'm am a computer clutz and don't have the technical smarts. Neither can I post links...like the one you want Jockey about spearing. Just go to the GBRMPA web site and have a look. Spearing in yellow zones was suppossed to be one of the trade-offs for RAP. Then they shafted us on that too. All around Cairns and Whitsunday's yellow zone spearing is banned. Don't start on the ethics etc of spearing...it is just a statement of fact!

The Pm I sent you is just a random page from the zoning plan and GPS or not very few people will read and understand. The zoning plan is a highly technical document. I will try to post the page again after this post but am not having much luck.

Regards

KC

[kc]

Hi Bladerunner. You said "If the zones are in thats the zoned area"..some fishing party!! Hmm. Did you read the first post in this string? Tell me...what is the status of the bays in front of Erlando (as posted)...read the plan, then look at the map....you tell me & I might add, you tell me without knowledge of the cannon shot rule, which you did not know (I asssume) before the information was posted. Put yourself in the position of going fishing, looking at the map, reading the zoning plan..................sounds pretty straight forward! Or is it?? A'n awful lot of boats don't have GSP. What say your walking along the beach south of Midge point cast neting some prawns or fishing.....are you going to have a GPS in your pocket?? You have Genesta Bay, which, based on the same laws applying to Erlando Bay are or may be, state waters and the map says green?? Hill Inlet on Whitsunday Island, zoned yellow, way up above mean low water mark?? No GPS marks for the corner of the green zone already identified at the start of this thread....what if you on the headland fishing or on the rocks getting a few oysters??

Go to MP20-1125 and identify for me the point where the green zone around the back of Seaforth actually become a yellow zone? The intersection points of the green & yellow on Shaw? The intersection point on Whithaven beach..MP 20-1116? Go to CP 20-1182 The point where the yellow zone of bluff point becomes blue? I could fill an entire post with these examples.

Bladerunner you are trying to make this sound really simple and The Fishing Party sound really dumb!! Let me word you up!! Its not & we are not!!

[jockey]

Actually KC it could work in your favour if you got busted because you didn't have the technology to obey the rules. I had always assumed that anyone who went a fair way offshore (so they couldn't navigate by landmarks) would use a GPS. How do you find your fishing spots without a GPS?

I didn't get the research papers or the PM.

Instead of trying to post a link, just go to the website, highlight the URL in the navigation bar (the bit at the top that says http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfis...36;start=30#30)
then copy and paste it onto here. Ausfish automatically turns it into a working link.

The average fisherman doesn't have a boat so the whole GPS issue doesn't affect them. A lot of the guys with boats may not go so far offshore anyway. If you do take a boat offshore then there are so many things you have to worry about that affect your safety that a GPS wouldn't add much to to it, and would probably improve your success rate anyway.

Marking where the green zone boundaries reach a beach would be pretty easy and I think that is what we should be focussing our criticism on.

[Kerry]

Do you know what the accuracy of GPS is?
Global average 13 metres or less 95% of the time (SIS only) and worst site positioning accuracy 36 metres or less 95% of the time (SIS only) and all based over any 24 hour period within the service volume.

Then there’s the other 5% of the time, which can be left to your imagination . Real world can be something like THAT Other 5 percent

What makes you think you will only be allowed to do 100 in a 100 zone soon?
What makes you think that this isn’t the case now, which by the way it is, just that up to now it hasn’t been enforced and no reason why it won't and actually is already on the table.

What happened when 'it' was tried with regard to fishing?
Fisheries got their way, one reason they get around in pairs but like any good prudent navigator don't rely on a sole means of navigation either.

Have there been any court rulings to back up what you are saying about the legal standing of GPS?
Put simply there is no “legal standing” with respect GPS with only one case where after much debate it was actually allowed to be put forward as evidence. As a legal standing there wasn't any.

Where did you get that quote from?
Probably off the top of my head at the time but officially it comes from the Global Positioning System Standard Positioning Service Performance Standard

No technology is 100% reliable. That doesn't stop law enforcement people using it. Fingerprints are a good example.
That’s the point isn’t it? and GPS doesn’t even come close, not by a long shot to some of the more “accepted” investigative evidence.

Perhaps you should just give us a link to the website(s) you are getting this from so we can make our own judgement.
“Judgment” There’s no “judgment” to be made as here one only has to deal with facts and not some of your over hyped “opinions”.

Most of the GPS Standards and Practices Such as SP1 are still not officially an Australian Standard so “Legal Traceability” simply doesn’t exist, yet, it can’t until there actually is a "recognized standard", no standard, then no legal traceability. So until the process of legal traceability is actually completed, which as I understand is still going through what is actually quite an involved and time consuming process then GPS measurements can not be used as evidence in court.

Each State still basically recognizes the limitations of GPS measurements. E.g These directions do not represent legal traceability of measurement from NSW Surveyor General

So what do these higher order surveying examples mean with respect to the subject, these are examples where survey GPS type equipment and procedures don’t meet legal traceability hence straight GPS SPS positions (what boaties are using), well these won’t even come close to ever meeting legal requirements.

As for relying on GPS Mariners are thus advised not to put total and absolute reliance for the safe navigation of their vessel solely on GPS.
You’ll find that in the AMSA Reliance on GPS for Navigation

As for Electronic Chart systems (ECS) the type which is found in any commercial vessel and many recreational vessels and the type which will have this zoning included, again there are reasons why not only the GPS is considered unreliable but also the charts As is explained Here and quoted

Legal Status of ECS
There are no agreed standards for ECSs or the versions of the charts that they use. Because of this, ECSs are NOT recognised as an alternative to paper charts where charts are required to be carried under Australian or International Regulations.

So you see jockey your going to have to deal with the facts, through and through and when you've read and understood (hopefully that will take quite some time ) all of those links, "understood" probably being the important bit for you, then come back and lets all hear it .

Cheers, Kerry.

[kc]

Hi Jockey,

You cough up the 220 grand & I'll go get busted for the publicity value. I don't use a GPS because I usually only fish around the Islands and up the river. If I go to the reef it's with mates.

The new zones effect everywhere, not just out wide. 185,000 queenslanders own and fish out of boats. Usually with at least 1 other person and often 2. That would put close to 1/2 the rec fishing community in boats at least.

Have you changed your email address?/ I tried again and it got bounced. Please send me an email at kc@whitsunday.net.au and I will send back the research papers and info from the zoning plan

Regards

KC

[Kerry]

....Marking where the green zone boundaries reach a beach would be pretty easy and I think that is what we should be focussing our criticism on.

Oh my did this character actually read the first post you know the firing of cannons across bays instead of following LWM etc etc in defining zone coastal boundaries.

They do say that sleep inproves memory retention, have a little nap jockey you've got a sh.. load of reading and understanding to do .

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

Kerry you don't need to confuse the shit out of everyone by talking about ancient maritime laws to get that point accross. You can hardly talk about not reading or understanding posts.