I did not see the program but if the navy can get close fire hoses are a non lethal method of stopping small ships.
It makes a joke of Howard and his border protection policies, If it will win votes he is interested, if it is just protecting Australia and Australians then who cares.
Thus endeth my rant
I am not advocating blowing them outa the water, but the vessel on 60 minutes could have been stopped. If it takes a few shots to slow them down, even at the risk of taking a life, so be it. If our vessel were fishing in their waters I think their responce would have been different (they seem quite quick to pull the trigger.
The Fishing Party
where are you on this one ( not having a go but you are supposed to be the party reprosenting the average joe fisher), I understand that you as a party will be appalled but did you not say you as a party you helped elect a National Party member and now had some clout (for want of a better word). NOWS THE TIME TO PULL THEM STRINGS and if you make enough noise on this issue which involves more than just fishing, it involves
National security
Fisheries
customs
makes you all of a sudden more than a one issue party
and
I aint finished yet
cheers
blaze
lets all email at least 1 member of parilment
Reel Hard,
As stated in my post I do not think I am entitled to say what is the best course of action in such situation.
It is my personal opinion as an outsider.
With the current world situation, media attitude, "shocking news" selling the papers and other such stuff it is only fair to say that in the event of fatalities in such an encounter it would make the front page news.
Results of such an event.
Major outcry in the media.
Australian Navy "killing innocent kids".
Worldwide condemnation.
Lost votes at home.
(Maybe not, but for people really pulling the strings that is the only thing that matters).
Some of the things to take into account would be:
- what would be the response of family memebers of a person killed over some irrelevant amount of fish (my understanding being that in Indonesia and in other nations involved family can be quite a number of people). What would happen if they went on a vendetta style of "hunting" innocent Australians inside their country to "avenge" a death in the family.
- Would it be worth it?
- Whould your advocated response be different if a boat in question was from another country (NZ, Japan, US and other countries not quite in agreement with Oz declared teretorial waters) ?
I belive that the laws of the land should be enforced.
If as somebody wrote the highest fine for breaking the fishing regulations was 27k I do not believe it would justify taking life.
I also don't think it would do anything except raising the fish price in HongKong.
Not in the short, not in the long term.
We fishos feel very strong about the thing.
We need fish in the water to keep us alive.
We can get very upset about others taking our fish from us.
Would you actually shoot a poacher?
As it happend in my life (I hunt) I have beeen in a situation where a poacher was corraled during a large day hunt and the stupid b@ST@##d started to shoot back.
The whole thing ended without any issues but I did have problems going to sleep for a while afterwards.
Not such an easy thing to shoot at another human.
Well....
I agree the issue is a hot one but to open fire with 50cal. is not the solution. The vessels could easily be deactivated by a system of getting a rope or net type material in line of the prop. The vessel would stop in its tracks. Sort of on the line of a spike belt used by police to slow/stop cars. SIMPLE method.
All the millions spent trying to stop what appears to be unstoppable would be better spent on the cause: go to the offending countries and set the fishermen up with enough money to start fish farms etc. Rehab the reefs in their regions? Educate them in the importance of sustainable fishing methods....
I believe the international rules of combat do not allow our navy to open fire on fishermen.
It would cause quite the stir with our neighbors.
I see too much generalization going on in these debates over everything from Rex Hunt bashing to LBGFishos making a mess of 1770!
I find myself reading these posts and shaking my head. Initialy wanting to say my bit but in the end i see its not worth the effort.
Yes write to your MP, but take the time to use snailmail. It can be more effective.
make your point clear and concise keeping in mind that you may not ever see a change.
My father has been talking revolution for years but... like most of us its all talk.
When i ever i get into it with him i get all fired up and then have to let it go.
Unless there is a true change in leadership change may not happen in my life. The planet as we know it will not sustain the present conditions it is enduring by mankind. Cripes there's oxymoron in that word; mankind.....
Too much time spent concerned over the state of our country/world is not healthy, it's time to go fishing.
Maybe i will just go look at fishing reports and avoid these debates.
wise67 wrote:
I find myself reading these posts and shaking my head. Initialy wanting to say my bit but in the end i see its not worth the effort.
It is worth.
That is the reason we all are here.
Shooting to kill first although very "manly" is rarely the answer.
Neither is apathy, turning a blind eye, listening/talking to others to become informed/educated, or arriving at a consensus without informed debate/discussion.Originally Posted by wise67
cheers kev
you're a fool to think its just 20k worth of fish, thats less than the fine, these boats are taking in excess of $100k worth of fish from our waters each trip
Neither is apathy, turning a blind eye, listening/talking to others to become informed/educated, or arriving at a consensus without informed debate/discussion.
cheers kev[/quote]
Your right.
I find it to be overwhelming to see it, read it 24/7 and by going to wet a line is a temp escape from it all.
By all means i applaud those that stand up and do something.
The media does not always tell the truth or know the truth. As i'm sure your well aware of. The level of stupidity throughout is shocking and the amount of complacent believers is just as shocking.
weeding out the nonsense to read the informed/educated opinions is worth the time when looking at this and other current affair posts.
cheers wise67
[quote author=Az link=1131272789/30#37 date=1131406679
<snip>
you're a fool to think its just 20k worth of fish, thats less than the fine, these boats are taking in excess of $100k worth of fish from our waters each trip
[/quote]
Mate, that's a bit hard calling someone a fool like that. There are thousands of misinformed, or even misguided citizens, but they aren't necessarily fools.
kev
well get educated people!
and wise67 I agree with you about the media and the amount of complacent believers, however in this instance I don't see that as the issue!
I am yet to read anyone's point here is to SHOOT TO KILL.
You broach this point in your responses.
I have only read and written about shooting to disable the boat for boarding purposes.
As stated the US coast guard gets results from taking this the firmer stance(wonder why)
Would my advocate response be the same if from a different country A- "absolutely I am not racist".
The shocking headlines read "Navy kills innocent kids" is a ficticious event you have created in this thread to give your point credence.
No one has been shot dead, and going from the procedures in place no one is going to be shot dead.
The media will always find or invent tommorows shocking headline. "It is up to yourself to read the truth".
You wrote "Not such an easy thing to shoot another human" Tell that to them. They are the one's doing it all at the moment.
Have a good day.
Reel Hard,
You are correct in many points.
- Nobody has said "shot to kill"
- Shocking headline I used to make my point is just part of the argument not reality.
- No one has been shot dead.
- In the end it does not matter if the boats in question was from any country on the map.
The point I was trying to make is that shooting at a fishing boat (whether below or above the waterline) can create a lot of problems and noise way out of proportion to the whole issue.
Back home we have a saying: "Man shoots, God is carring the bullets".
When bullets start flying not intended things can and do happen.
Regarding the effectivenes of US Coast Guard (or border controls) we all know that a huge numbers of illegal immigrants somehow get in don't they?
Enjoy your day as well.
Szopen; I guess at the end of the day we need to do something more then what we are, being laughed at and seen as a soft touch does not curb this problem.
"I"- obviously one of many here see our fish stocks being raped and our borders crossed illeagaly with the posibility of disease spread(potentialy killing Australians) being a very important issue.
When these people threaten our Navy and are agressive it is time to be aggressive in return. If the illeagles know this is what will happen, purhaps they will do different.
No one wants to fight it out, but sometimes to protect what you have you just have to.
We have seen the tuff stance on illegal immigration ie: "Boat People" work as a deterant over the last few years, so why not take a tuff stance on illegal fishing in Australian waters instead of pussy-footing around with them >
My two cents for what it's worth........
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