Yeah Mal. I'm lucky in a way in that the Whittley has a live bait tank and kill tank in the cockpit floor. As the kill tank isn't big enough for cobes etc (not that I catch many) I use that for live bait and the live bait tank holds the pfd's so they're easily accessible. As it is though, and in view of recent events, I'm gonna have the kids vested whenever underway or difficult conditions.
kev
Its definately good practice to think about the
location, quality and accessability of your safety equipment.
I get a bit anal about it, but safety first, hey..
I always kept the flare bottle, epirb and extinguisher
within quick easy reach, and all the jackets carefully
stowed, accessed by unhooking one end of a shock cord.
Each trip I put my (and crews) wallet, mobile, car keys etc in a seperate
sealed floating container.
Always educate the crew re; location, how to operate the gear,
the boat and radio.
Harry..
Well this thread has had a change of direction, hehe I personally like the above post have a Grab bag we use them at work in this case it has all the saftey gear i require for the location i am fishing in etc and whilst underway it is always at my feet that way in that split second that something does happen you just have to grab it and bail. not a bad thing to have in my mind and yes it is all water proof and also floats.
Cheers
MAD!
Commendable Kingtin, now perhaps you and other readers might care to take it one step further.... I have said this in a couple of posts previously
Get your kids to put those jackets on IN the water at yours or someone elses swimming pool. MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF DRAGGING THEM OUT IN A HURRY IF THEY GET INTO TROUBLE.
Get them to put them on at night and get them to do it quickly, they may not have much time before you all get seperated in the water in a real situation.
You as a parent, need to put one on in a hurry possibly 1 handed, in the other hand you may be holding on to 1 or more of your kids so they dont drift away or drown, or even 2 or 3 life jackets for your kids because you have to swim to them.... try swimming both in and out of a life jacket with a couple of life jackets in tow.... you will be surprised... not pleasantly.... think very hard, will you ever be put in the situation where you have to choose the life of 1 child over another because of lack of preparedness
Know your flares, their uses, and how to use them, how many of you realise that most will have identifying symbols embossed on the top so you can feel which flares they are in the dark or if you have burns on your face, petrol or oil in your eyes... They are usually stored in their packages, a VERY heavy duty plastic airtight bag that is difficult to open in good conditions, try opening and identifying the flares in the dark, once again one handed but with your eyes closed... sadly dropping one or more of the flares in this situation is a likelyhood in a panicked condition... In my humble opinion, flares should be stored OUT of their plastic bags in a proper floating grab bag so that they are easily accessable. The same applys to life jackets, many people throw them in the bow with the anchor and the rest of the crapp and keep them in their wrapper also, they also should be stored where readily accessable and ready to use.... Yes these things may have to be replaced more frequently if exposed to the ellements... but still, what price is a kids life? Give the jackets a good wash with fresh water, lubrication of any zips etc, hang up and dry properly and chances are they will last just as long anyway... if they do not come with a whistle, buy 1 and tie it to it, sound travels a real long way at night....
Anyway, just remember to keep yourself and your kids safe while attempting the above suggestions, at least you will be doing it in controlled conditions, not in the real darkeness, with kids crying and panicking, waves braking, heart pounding fear gripping you for yourself and your children, possible petrol, oil, battery acid, flames, vomiting after drinking a couple of mouths full of salt water, sharks, hell, in this country even possibly crocodiles wanting to have a nibble on you, all in all even with 1 or 2 of these things happening to you it will be very tuff...
I dont want people to live in fear, just prepare for an eventuality that may but hopefully never will happen.... anyone that has had a car crash on here never planned that either!!!
One last thing, if you do ever have the missfortune to have to let off a flare be aware that a hellicopter searching for you may be closer than you think, use them wisely and try not to panic... not all have auto hover fitted, but most do have fleur nowdays so will pick up body heat when close enough... blind the pilot and by the time he can get his orientation back, he may be in the drink with you... this is the conjecture placed at the Coroners Court up North after the deaths of several Rescue Crew a couple of years back...
Safe Boating
Lloyd
Excellent post Lloyd and very imformative. I will say that when i did my Occupational Health and Safety at Sea the made us put on life jackets in the water, Man that was hard, you could almost use all your energy if a disaster happened just trying to do that.
They also made us get into a inflateable raft with a life jacket on. That's a book on it's own.
Cheers
Darryl
In a training situation it is a lot of fun to be honest. It is good to learn and have fun at the same time, the message tends to stick.
Ahhh, the old WHS. I am currently an accreditted WHSO but I wont be continuing it at my real work when it expires. Seem to be always in the Shdt with either the bosses or your workmates if you try and do it properly. (But to be fair my Company isnt to bad overall in that regard now days usually)
When I originaly joined VMR, we actualy trained to transfer between 2 vessels on the plane, no one ever fell in the drink, got hurt, or was made to do it... it was a great tool to learn to have faith in your own and others ability to control a vessel. I am not saying it was the safest thing to do, but with a risk analysis etc, the minimising of the identified risks etc it was I consider a very valued training tool... it wasnt something you did often, maybe once or twice, but nowdays it is something we cant do at all. Even us old buggers cant let our hair down nowdays
Thanks Kev & Subzero, This is what this thread was really about in my eyes, its about safety and I could quite easily cock up enough to end up in the drink too!
I had a few extra kids out on the weekend with varying weights and had to use the ol brick lifevests to be legal and drag them in a ring behind the boat, took them ages to figure out how to don the vest so I will ensure my kids practice in the pool.
Personally I don't take the kids offshore but I have been considering getting an inflatable vest just because I head offshore quite a bit and not uncommon to be by myself. I could be like Stephen not in a position to dive and grab a lifevest so the inflatable could be the real difference.
I think we all have to be responsible enough to learn from others mistakes. Yes it is a mistake but it could very well be a mistake I would have done myself. I was shocked when a 36foot Blackwatch went down in the Seaway but it taught me that the extremely experienced can also stuff up enough to go down so we all have to take this seriously and assess our own emergency procedures.
cheers BB
That would be fun Lloyd, i didn't get a chance to do that but i'm sure it would have been fun.
Lloyd just a quick question, do you think everyone that obtains a boat licence should do a 2 day Occupational e Health and Safety course.
In my opinion i think they should, i learnt so much in that 2 days as in how to let off flares, what position to be in if in the water offshore, how hard it is to put on a life jacket in the water etc etc.
I think it should be mandatory.
I agree it would benefit everyone and most would find it fun if they did it.
The cost of such a course would normally be relatively cost prohibitive to a lot of people, both young and old... if delivered by a buissiness enterprise with their expenses and overheads.
People tend to dislike authority placing new restrictions and regulations on them, wether they be for their benefit or not and their are a number of posts on Ausfish where people have complained bitterly about such things.
I am of the opinion that if you make things to hard, or to expensive, then some people will prefer to break the law. It happens with Radio Licensing, I predict it will hapen with the changes in Boat Licensing and also Jet-Ski Licensing.
I run quite a few Radio Courses throughout the year, I personaly believe that a registered Training Organisation should be able to issue Statements of Attainment or Statements of Competancy in this area. (This could only be recognised for Australian Waters only as their is an International requirement that licenses be held for VHF/MF/HF Comms to meet the SOLAS agreement).
This would keep the prices down, and therefore make it more appealing to some that will not know how to, or are to frightened to use their Radio's.
This is just a small section of the whole package that should be made available for those that want to learn, but to be able to do this, that would mean a considerable amount of more time given by many already overburdoned Volunteer Groups. Their would also be costs born by the units to meet these demands as well.
The greatest ways to learn are from being motivated to learn because you want to, and to learn from experience or the experiences of others. This site will probably teach more in a a few days than a new boater will learn in a year if they want to learn and ask the questions.
The first step, is for the Maritime Authoritys to get together and sort out a uniform code for all States/Territorys in Australia to standardise the requirements for safety gear, equipment, usage and restrictions. This includes the whole package standardised into one....
Cant see it happening when the States Territorys cant even organise a National Database accessable for the DNA held for serious violent offenders etc. (I find that obscene that they cant even share this stuff and sort it out when it is guaranteed to catch rapists, molesters and murderers already on record).
Anyway, thats another story, the long and the short of it is, you cant force people to do the right thing if they dont want to, give them the tools, give them the help, sort your own backyard out and we might have a chance...
Hope the answer helped in a round about sort of way
Kind Regards
Lloyd
Certainly helped me realise quite a few things Lloyd and thanks for taking the time too explain them.
I can see what you are saying buy expensive , i was lucky and was managing Gold Coast Holidays Afloat when The Dpt of transport introduced legislation that any person giving a customer a run down on how to operate a hired houseboat had to have a restricted coxswains at least. It was the same time they made surf life saving rescue boat operators have or obtain theres as well.
So my boss paid for it to cut a long story short so i was lucky, but the knowledge i gained from it is irraplaceable and life saving should i ever need to use it.
Funny but silly thing about that was they waved our sea time to obtain it.
Work that one out.
Thoroughly enjoying the way this thread has turned out and in particular your expertise Lloyd. The above statement of yours is part of my philosophy. Learn because you want to, not because you are made to. Look, listen, learn, and enjoy. Learning is a discipline, and as it is true with all disciplines, is better as a self-discipline rather than an imposed discipline.Originally Posted by subzero
kev
One thing that really intrigues me about this very long running thread is that now after we have an explanation of what actually happened, no-one is interested in the actual mechanics of the accident. Now that the blame issue has been settled no-one seems care about anything else except accessability to safety gear.
I would have thought the biggest lesson to be learned here would have been how NOT to flip your boat in relatively calm water. Seems this little issue has been overlooked.
Turning into an oncoming wave at idle and then putting the power down with the motor trimmed in and not straightened up could well cause small craft to flip. Laterally extended spray chines may well dig in and cause the power of the motor to drive the bow down like a corkscrew.
I am not into the blame game and couldn't care less whose fault it was or wasn't. What I am looking at here is things NOT to do in order to stay upright.
I didnt realise sea-time could be waived.
Seatime is not nessecarily a good method to validate skills anyway, there are Skippers and Skippers, Trainers and Trainers, many will do the right thing and ensure their students are gainfully learning new and maintaining old skills, others will get them to release the lines at one end, serve coffee in the interim, and then tie off at the other end. That can make seatime a farce in many instances.
Once again, just my opinion
I think they are, but otoh, the consensus may well be that whatever has been stated has not been validated and therefore is not worth pursuing. The only *real* evidence can only be gleaned from those involved and as they seem to think it is a "hull issue" and not "pilot error" then what more can be gained at this point by pursuing it further?
kev
Panda, I know what you are saying, I do not nessecarily believe that fault can be apportioned in this instance, nor do I think it should be in this instance. (They had the gear, they didnt have little kids with them that they were risking by not equipping them correctly, they knew where they were even if the News couldnt be bothered getting it right, the weather was regarded as good, and I have not heard them blame anyone else... yes their Mum and Dad has said about a possible problem with the hull).
It could have been something as simple as a Dugong causing the Boat to flip. Lots of could be's, unlikely to ever know the answer to this one, the people on the boat may never truely know the answer themselves.
I stayed out of this discussion right through untill now but watched it closely from the beggining because I too like to learn. Their were somethings that were not done right, (Or by the book at least), Flares, Lifejackets and leaving the boat all had issues as far as I am concerned that made it lucky that they managed to survive. I am sure that if their were lessons to be learned, they have been learned by not only those on the boat but by us at home tonight.
Thankfully they did, and now we are all reaping the benefits of their missfortune. We are learning from it, people are thinking.... this incident has probably saved someone elses life because of the way the topic has turned in the direction of educating for the unforseen, that should be forseen. We will never know for sure if it has saved someones life, but if it means it has made 1 Ausfisher head out to his boat to check his flares or jackets, and in the future he needs them, it might have made the difference.
Just my opinion, but I think the time to look for cause on this one is long gone because I dont think anyone knows or will find the answer including those people on the boat. If they had done something warranting a good slap around the ears, the Water Police would have already done it.
Kind Regards
Lloyd
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