thoughts on fine

[Panasonic]

sorry i misread a little, i guess i was making the point that according to a few of the previous peoples comments, Victoria Tasmania and NSW all have compulsory life jacket laws of some kind
also with the calls for their usage in QLD by members of the medical proffession i think we can see a move towards their introduction on a wider scale
South Australia are also looking at it from a political view
i know the Greens arent a nice topic, but they have power
http://www.sa.greens.org.au/mr.php?mr=100
i also read somewhere New Nealand is doing the same thing
maybe with this latest fine things may change.

[cooky]

even with a lifejacket in a accessable spot do you think you could grab one if all of a sudden you was fliped over or a steering link broke and you found yourself parting with the boat?

hmmmm - let's protect ourselves from EVERY single potential cause of death or injury. next all boats above 4m will have to carry a liferaft or two just in case the first one doesn't work. Mandatory attachment to the lifejacket will be speargun or similar for shark protection. Sometimes your luck is just up. If you want to wear lifejackets at all times then that's fine and sensible, but don't wish it on everyone else. Not everyone uses a boat for transport or fishing - it's the enjoyment of boating. Next all boats able to travel over 25kts all crew will have to wear helmets, wetsuit, lifejacket, seperate EPIRBs. You may think this sounds ridiculous, but no more so than your suggestion of mandatory lifejackets.

[cooky]

You may think this sounds ridiculous, but no more so than your suggestion of mandatory lifejackets.

I forgot to say "IMO"

[sf17fisherman]

cooky i understand what your say and thats fine but with somefishing i thinkti would be a wise move

it isn't as much as wrapping ourself in cotton more about makeing my boating and fishing more safe so i can come home to my family
if my boating is safe and problem free then i have enjoyed it

the PFD i'm talking about are them slimlined easy wearing ones
weight is next to nothing
size is nice and compact and smaller than a singlet you may wear
eand easy of them is fool proof

many people by rod staps to strap their hundreds of dollors worth or game rods in and yet think nothing for them selfs

[lunar_c]

If I was subzero I would not respond to that..I would not leave myself open if anything does go awry. It is the boat operator's obligation to ensure they are fully aware of all safety requirements, weather, tide etc etc etc...this may or may not be a legal obligation but it sure as hell is a moral one for the safety of himself/herself and all others on board.

I should wait for subzero to respond but..
He stated that rules were broken.
Whether they be regulations or "unwritten law of the sea", I think it's reasonable for him to nominate what rules they are.

As for being fully aware of the weather, surely you don't mean that we are obliged to make perfect forecasts when professional meteorologists from the Bureau make no such claim?

A lot of conjecture here on what he had/ did not have, what he did/ did not do...the only real way of knowing the basis he was fined on is to read the court transcript..what the prosecution stated to the court..without that we are only guessing.

I have made contact with the water police and prosecutions.
Basically as a member of the public, it's none of our goddamn business what they think happened.
To go any further I will have to make a Freedom of Information request.
As he pleaded guilty to the charge, there is no court transcript either and the basis for the charge would probably have not been read out.

I have also made contact with Channel Nine and requsted a copy of, or images from, their footage taken of the "rescue"
The shot taken of the two boys in their lifejackets should be very instructive..

Ben

[cooky]

cooky i understand what your say and thats fine but with somefishing i thinkti would be a wise move

it isn't as much as wrapping ourself in cotton more about makeing my boating and fishing more safe so i can come home to my family
if my boating is safe and problem free then i have enjoyed it

yeh mate, understand your position 100% and have absolutely no problem with it. It's just not my idea of boating in our area. Maybe in a more unpredicatable region or when seas or area unfamiliar then I might have to investigate the jackets you speak of. It is nice to feel safe, hence the reason I'd love to upgrade to something like a fisher or similar with floatation, airchambers, etc - almost unsinkable. Just don;t see why someone wiht a safe boat would have to by law wear one. Prefer education and decision by choice.

[PinHead]

[quote author=PinHead link=1138699525/75#86 date=1138897718]
If I was subzero I would not respond to that..I would not leave myself open if anything does go awry. It is the boat operator's obligation to ensure they are fully aware of all safety requirements, weather, tide etc etc etc...this may or may not be a legal obligation but it sure as hell is a moral one for the safety of himself/herself and all others on board.

I should wait for subzero to respond but..
He stated that rules were broken.
Whether they be regulations or "unwritten law of the sea", I think it's reasonable for him to nominate what rules they are.

As for being fully aware of the weather, surely you don't mean that we are obliged to make perfect forecasts when professional meteorologists from the Bureau make no such claim?

A lot of conjecture here on what he had/ did not have, what he did/ did not do...the only real way of knowing the basis he was fined on is to read the court transcript..what the prosecution stated to the court..without that we are only guessing.

I have made contact with the water police and prosecutions.
Basically as a member of the public, it's none of our goddamn business what they think happened.
To go any further I will have to make a Freedom of Information request.
As he pleaded guilty to the charge, there is no court transcript either and the basis for the charge would probably have not been read out.
I have also made contact with Channel Nine and requsted a copy of, or images from, their footage taken of the "rescue"
The shot taken of the two boys in their lifejackets should be very instructive..

Ben[/quote]


Oh I was not aware that they did not read out the charges if you plead guilty...that could be fun..toss in a few other charges for some fun. All items spoken in a court of law once that court is sitting is recorded...the prosecution would have read the charges and then the defendant pleaded guilty and the magistrate would then have issued the penalty..this would all have been reported.

In my opinion, I really don't care what his penalty is...he did not defend the charges therefore he is guilty....completely in the wrong.

[lunar_c]

Oh I was not aware that they did not read out the charges if you plead guilty...that could be fun..toss in a few other charges for some fun. All items spoken in a court of law once that court is sitting is recorded...the prosecution would have read the charges and then the defendant pleaded guilty and the magistrate would then have issued the penalty..this would all have been reported.

Of course the charge is read out.
As the charge is not contested, there is no "discussion" of the reasons for the charge, and there is no "transcript" of the proceedings.
As told to me by an officer with police prosecutions today..

[lunar_c]

In my opinion, I really don't care what his penalty is...he did not defend the charges therefore he is guilty....completely in the wrong.

And how do you plead PinHead?
Are you willing to risk your house, your boat, access to your kids, and the fact that respected members of ausfish will TYPE YOUR NAME OUT IN CAPITALS like a common criminal to defend your decision, as captain of your boat, to fit your passengers/crew with PFD's that you decided would keep them safe and comply with the legislation?


A precedent has now been set for "appropriate size".
None of us know what it is.
That is the point of this thread - IMHO

Ben

[Derek_Bullock]

[quote author=PinHead link=1138699525/90#96 date=1138952391]

Oh I was not aware that they did not read out the charges if you plead guilty...that could be fun..toss in a few other charges for some fun. All items spoken in a court of law once that court is sitting is recorded...the prosecution would have read the charges and then the defendant pleaded guilty and the magistrate would then have issued the penalty..this would all have been reported.

Of course the charge is read out.
As the charge is not contested, there is no "discussion" of the reasons for the charge, and there is no "transcript" of the proceedings.
As told to me by an officer with police prosecutions today..

[/quote]

Hi

Just a few comments on Magistrate Court process and yes I have prosecuted matters.

You wait outside court until your name is called.

You go into the court and the charge is read out.

You plead guilty or not guilty

If you plead guilty the circumstances are read out by the prosecution (sometimes only a brief outline but something is always stated) in order that the Magistrate knows why he is making a decision.

You or your solicitor, if you have one, get the opportunity to comment #

The Magistrate hands down his decision.

# At times it is not uncommon for the Magistrate to pronounce you guilty first and then ask for comment from you or your solicitor before he hands down his decision.

Your comment As the charge is not contested, there is no "discussion" of the reasons for the charge is incorrect.

Cheers


Derek

[lunar_c]

Thanks Derek
Like I said, merely repeating what I was told.
So there should be some publicly available record with more than just the charge stated?
Will investigate further.

[Derek_Bullock]

There will be a police prosection brief but I doubt you will get hold of it as they are not public records.


Derek

[subzero]

Firstly I appologise for the delay in getting back to this thread. Yesterday was a day of major upheavel at home with the wife having a bit of a medical emergency and major problems at work with staffing issues to cap it off.

Pinhead, thanks for the advice, appreciate it

I will reply to Gazza first, as that is the easier, especially at the speed I type.

Hi Subzero, as you know 'Thumps' is WRONG in even suggesting PFD's "must" be worn at all times in Q'ld
(although you didn't pick this up, it's o.k.)

Without thouroughly re-reading the post, I dont think Thumps said it was mamdatory in QLD which of course it's not.

the other issue, was if 10L of petrol was given, was there an incident?
(i take it ,by your post, he intentionally expected to run out of petrol 1/2 way and get a "top-up"...on purpose ,to me hard to believe that was his intent)

I didnt say he did run out of fuel intentionaly, I questioned his judgement. In the 7 years of operational work, I never once ran out of fuel, nor did any other vessel I was on. This involved some very long and involved searches and also towing some very large vessels in heavy weather. Sometimes the results acheived were not those requested but were determined by conditions and fuel usage. Changes have been made in route to meet fuel demands including departing from search patterns before becomming part of the problem, not the solution.

Subzero.....prac. test 4 U

How many times does VMR?/water-police when they do a safety-equip. "check", make the occupants put on their PFD's to ensure errrrrr....correct fit!!!

As commercial operators we were originally told that sa part of shipboard drills we were required to perform fortnightly Fire, Flood and abandonment drills. This was a little difficult as normally rosters are attended once monthly. As a result Qld Tpt Maritime division gave us an exemption and insisted this was completed every 2 months by each roster. During these times, they were done to that level, which included fitting of the jackets and retrievals from the water if safe to do so. Further our jackets are inspected each Roster at the beggining thouroughly, in the pm checks they recieve a cursory check, on the sunday this was completed again. With the Stormy Seas PFD's they were also sent away for 6 monthly inspections and we have recieved in turn certificates as to their suitability as is required. To my knowledge this is still being done on each and every Roster by each and every member.

Have U failed in a "duty of care" ....of course you haven't
Mate ,you guys do an excellent job ,but unfortunately it's to get people out of the sh!t ,not to prevent sh!t happening.

Have I failed in my Duty of care? Yes I have, will no doubt do it again. I have said over and over again, everyone makes mistakes, I hope I learn from mine aqnd I hope I dont make so many mistakes at once that I become such a risk to others that this determines I need to be prosecuted. Not all work place incidents are prosecuted, generally they tend to be the ones where they were ignored or extremely serious. (I am a certified WHSO so I am very conversant with this area).
As for the last comment, I appreciate the praise you bestowed upon Rescue Personal, but if you were meaning it is not the Role of VMR Rescue Personal to educate, then you are wrong, one of our roles is to educate and promote water safety. This can be found in our constitution if you would like to have a quick squiz here http://www.vmr.org.au/index_files/vmrvpconstitution.pdf It was also in the VMRAQ's (Parent body) site somewhere.

p.s. Mods ,please delete picture if any offence is taken ,out-of-context.

Ah the picture, loved the picture, at first I thougt this was in relation to my comment about fire away, and it probably was I thought that little speck was me in your sites, then I noticed the words... I do enjoy a good laugh and when I inspected the picture closer I saw the little words. Very good

I hope this answers your questions

Cheers Lloyd

[PinHead]

[quote author=PinHead link=1138699525/90#96 date=1138952391]

In my opinion, I really don't care what his penalty is...he did not defend the charges therefore he is guilty....completely in the wrong.

And how do you plead PinHead?
Are you willing to risk your house, your boat, access to your kids, and the fact that respected members of ausfish will TYPE YOUR NAME OUT IN CAPITALS like a common criminal to defend your decision, as captain of your boat, to fit your passengers/crew with PFD's that you decided would keep them safe and comply with the legislation?


A precedent has now been set for "appropriate size".
None of us know what it is.
That is the point of this thread - IMHO

Ben
[/quote]


I have adult PFD1's on board my boat...I also have a child's PFD1 for my grandson (sized accordingly and changed as he grows)...I do not take any other children on board as I do not have the appropriate safety equipment for them...do some people have a problem buying the correct clothes to fit them??? It really is not that difficult to use some common sense and act accordingly.

"Court reporters
The court reporter records the court proceedings word for word. New technology now enables court reporters to record proceedings on a computer or on audio equipment.

In the Court of Appeal, proceedings are also recorded on video."


Ben..the above excerpt is from the Qld Govt website

[Gazza]

How many times does VMR?/water-police when they do a safety-equip. "check", make the occupants put on their PFD's to ensure errrrrr....correct fit!!!

[s]As commercial operators we were originally told that sa part of shipboard drills we were required to perform fortnightly Fire, Flood and abandonment drills. This was a little difficult as normally rosters are attended once monthly. As a result Qld Tpt Maritime division gave us an exemption and insisted this was completed every 2 months by each roster. During these times, they were done to that level, which included fitting of the jackets and retrievals from the water if safe to do so. Further our jackets are inspected each Roster at the beggining thouroughly, in the pm checks they recieve a cursory check, on the sunday this was completed again. With the Stormy Seas PFD's they were also sent away for 6 monthly inspections and we have recieved in turn certificates as to their suitability as is required. To my knowledge this is still being done on each and every Roster by each and every member. [/s]

Hi Subzero ,thanks for your time and trust wife is o.k......

Mate ,with regards to "checking for fit" i was primarily referring to rec boaties , at the ramp ,calm days ,etc. i.e. not an "emergency day" , but the boatie ,once his PFD(s) were only "counted" in a SAFETY CHECK, they could still be the wrong type or weight supported ,and be the next guy in similar circumstances ,as in this topic.

Pinhead alluded that he does have a kids PFD , i don't !! , but if i came across some overturned boat with kids treading water, i would deadset ,not think twice in providing a mansize PFD

I don't think Pinhead would either, but i couldn't just be sooo PoliticallyCorrect ,and not offer assistance ,because ....sorry kids.....wrong size...vrrroom ,ain't in the dictionary.

The guy did things wrong i.e. guilty(nobody in this topic has ever said scott-free innocent), but jmo, $3000 is wayyyy over the top.

p.s. have never run out of petrol , err had the 20L "tilted" once or twice
but i won't say(with all the best intentions)..."I never will"