Originally Posted by Crestcutter
dam straight
but as Kingtin says...he wasnt entirely fined for that
dam straight
but as Kingtin says...he wasnt entirely fined for that
He pleaded guilty so he has acknowledged the error.
Perhaps community service order with the VMR and a donation to careflight may have been a better option than more money for Beattie to squander
Perhaps to obtain a boat licence we should be tested on ability to better determine sea conditions based weather forecasts and charts along with tidal variations.
ok...this little chat will have me on a soap box....so
stuff the Beattie Government....its not about who got the money from the fine
its about the fact that ONE man recklessly put the lives of two young boys in danger
as was expressed by the Magistrate
he blamed everyone else before he was fined...ie the guy who sold him the Jackets
IF the law was standardised there would be NO confusion at all.
Seeing as we are going again..
Pleading guilty has nothing to do with being guilty - especially for something as subjective as "recklessness".
ABC News replayed some of the footage last night. They showed a quick shot of both kids walking off the police boat. Both were wearing vest type PFD2- as per regulation for partially smooth waters. Looked like "next size up" at most.
Remember that there is no definition for "apropriate size" in the legislation.
The CourierMail report from the time of the incident
stated as fact: the BoM forecast was 15kn
stated as fact: blew 28kn when he was half way across.
He required a tow, not a rescue, 2k out.
You can logically deduce that he had a fair reserve of fuel.
The lesson here is that the regulations mean nothing.
When it goes bad you had better be fully equipped for the situation you find yourself in.
Also apparent is that the prosecutor and magistrate have an opinion on minimum hull size for Moreton Bay.
I would still like to know who he sent the SMS to..
what happens to the $3000 ???
brian
Kev i wouldn't bet the Whittley on it wasn't calm that morning.
I was out there that morning and it was like a pond....4.30 am beautiful.5.00am and all hell broke loose, it was like someone let the plug out.
But i do admitt i was in the Peel Island area.
& it will change nothing ..
i reckon there are probably some on this site, sitting & reading this who will still miscalculate & put them & theirs in the same position...'it will never happen to me!' doesn't matter what the law is, they still won't obey it..
from memory, somewhere on here i read thumps that you were involved in law enforcement, so you would have a better understanding of people who don't give a fig & do as they please anyway.
where are judges like this guy, when you get some sh*thead that has a dozen break & enters or assaults, stolen cars,drugs etc. & all they KEEP getting are slaps on the wrist.
ps, no sympathy for the man, he should have all the correct gear in his boat..
What gear did he not have?
DR
it comes with years of listening and seeing the "I dont give a fig..she'll be right attitude"
well sometimes it wont be right
i agree on the judge issue as well...its called "political correctness"...and to let some of these people back on the street gets my goat as well
the point here is simple...if the law was one...in Aus...and not all this confusing b/s that allows for misiformation to be carried over...then things would be a little different.
im not talking about Big Brother stuff...or which Premier gets more money to do what with
I'm talking plain simple common sense..its something that is missing in todays society.
i personally fitted and threw my kids in a pool to test there correct fit etc....before the were allowed on the boat...and they wear PFD' 1s ALL the time
public opinion can change the way a Law is written.....and in alot of cases the Law is written to appease and make things a little easier for our way of life.....but in doing this we miss the point of the Law in the first place.
this Guy was charged and convicted of placing his Kids in Danger.....something we as adults should never do.
the circumstances are not for us to judge...although we do as a matter of course..and to further inform ourselves of what too expect if we commit the same errors.
the fact that he coped a FINE...is in a way a slap on the wrist....he will go back into the ocean and still do things the way he sees fit....but he will just become more cagey ..and blame the authorities for harrassing him....( Bloody cops and their fund raising)
if we as citizens...were to comply with the way its supposed to be...and not contort or manipulate the way we want it to be....there would be enough law enforcment officers...and less people would committ serious LIFE THREATNING errors
anyway...thats my soap box...ill step off now
Fuel - for a start
whether he required a tow or a rescue, his lack of planning caused others to be put at risk to go fetch him. The lifejackets were only part of the equation, its the whole deal added up that made the charge of negligent operation of a vessel
his experience should have known better
1 adult overseeing 2 kids
wrong type lifejackets
insufficient fuel
AND....althogh the lifejackets were the only things mentioned, that is partially smooth water and I'll bet that there were other things missing such as V sheet, paddle et al
quite rightly he's pleaded guilty, doesn't want to talk about it, and we should let it drop as well
And how did you simulate an angry ocean in your swimming pool?
I've seen kids float around quite successfully in jackets that were way to big.
Kids can also wriggle out of the best fitting jackets - try it you'll be surprised.
Absolutely for us to judge.
Natural justice as per the Magna Carta requires that we be judged by a jury of our peers.
Yeah.. once guilty, always guilty - should be in jail. Should make sure his kids never go fishing again.
Public crucifixion is the best way to keep the herd in line.
And what exactly was the error?
He launched in good conditions with a good forecast and a reserve of fuel in a fully equipped boat.
Make that over equipped - he had a phone
wanted to highlight that point as i can't see how we can say if he will go and do it again and be cagey about it or if he has learnt for the huge mistak of putting his children in harms way
i would think he is more than likly in the second case as many australian would be
our children come first and all this hoo haw about him doing the wrong thing and all this is nether here or there
i would bet not only the left one but both that he wishes none of this had happened and that he didn't put his kids through that
as for what gear he had we yes he may not of had the right lifejackets (and i agree with him that boat dealer need to set up more) i have seen countless times of boats brand new being sold to young familys with mum dad and two kids and yet the dealers are more than happy to send them out with four adult life jackets and never mention how they are useless to the kids if the time comes
dealers should really look at who they are selling the boats to and fit them up according
and as for fule well when the going gets tougher than you could of expected then your tank of fule woun't last all that long
hell if we are going to charge people with neglect for running out of fule then the courts will be full after the weekends
biggest call out for the VMR's is for boats running out of fule
for me i fill my tanks up each time i use them but no dout one day i may run out if i do get caught out
Fining one guy $3000 and making an example of him was supposed to be a message to the rest of us and teach us all a lesson
It obviously has not done that!!!!!
lunar c
a life jacket is to be tight fitting...and is...if fitted correctly..and my kids have trouble taking it off and putting it on on land
a PFD1 is designed to hold your head above water taking into account the body mass..and does, if fitted correctly.
to stimulate any conditions is the job of the PFD 1 makers...and is governed by the AS1512 rules that make it a PDF1.
and besides...he had them in PFD 3's...which is my point about uniform laws in Aus
we are Not America...and the magna carta thing...well!!
he was judged by Australian Law...by a Judge.....not a group of peers..but by one Peer with his own views...as you have yours.
his error was not taking his kids to be fitted correctly....his error was buying something incorrect..based on what he saw..and was supposedly told by someone else....(third hand info)...instead of doing the right thing as per the law...and ensuring that he NEVER put those kids in danger.
is a childs life worth less than a trip to the dealer for a correct fit????...or a trip to the DPI...or similar.....to find out what is correct???
he stated his years of experience as a commercal fisherman....does this give him the right to make a bad judgment???...or should he have known better???
the sea conditions were a catalyst for a series of events that led him to placing his children in Danger....
BECAUSE...they were incorrectly fitted...and supplied without the PROPER saftey gear...by HIM
Yeah mate I can well believe you and that is just another of the issues here that we really aren't qualified to respond to. We really have no knowledge of what the sea was like when he left. I've left Shorncliffe for Moreton at 5.30 one evening on glass and by 5.45 I was crapping myself heading for the shelter of mud. I really thought I was a goner (and would've been in kingtin) and what made matters worse was I had the littlest feller with me.Kev i wouldn't bet the Whittley on it wasn't calm that morning.
I was out there that morning and it was like a pond....4.30 am beautiful.5.00am and all hell broke loose, it was like someone let the plug out.
But i do admitt i was in the Peel Island area.
What we need to do here........and I think we need to do it for the benefit of our own education and "upskilling" is actually put yourself in the position of that bloke according to the facts that we have at hand. Unfortunately, some of those "facts" come from the media so even if we do the exercise here, some "data" may be "perjured".
I can only judge (as we all can) from our own experience and standpoint and what I do know is that the bay is *very* unpredictable and as the bom says, "allow for another 40%". Weather can also be very localised and unfortunately we can't predict as to where squalls may occur but we should factor that into our equations.
So here we are, analysing.
First point: If it was blowing at 15 as someone has said, and judging the size of the boat, I would say that was pretty borderline as to whether to go, no, sorry, I would say I *wouldn't* go (and on that day, I chose not to, even with the Whittley).
2nd point: It isn't always true but I think that we should all conceede that wind deteriorates as the day draws on. Now give him the benefit of the doubt and judge the wind at only 10, then allow for it to get worse and then stick that 40% on that the bome warn us of. On that thinking and even though the wind is at 10, I wouldn't go.......In the Whittley I would, but not in a tinnie that size. He may decide to go, and his decsion may well have not had the consequences as luck qould have been on his side, but should we, as parents, rely on that element of luck?
3rd point: he ran out of fuel when he should have arrived home with extra
4th point: The life jackets, and "personalities" aside, think on the fact that he was an experienced deckie yet tried to blame someone else for his failure to have the correct ones. What does that tell you about his integrity? If he was new to boating, fair enough, give the guy a break, but he wasn't new and probably had more experience than many of us here who would have acted more approriately, so how come they weren't approriate? Was he misguided and should he have needed guidance? No, he should know full well the requirements, and if that is so, and he *did* know the requirements, yet another "integrity" question.
There are probably other points that could be raised but those are enough for me to put myself in his shoes in deciding whether to go or not
It has been said that we should abandon this debate but just for a moment think what we have all gained from it? Isn't this good and healthy? The only thing I'm pissed off about is that this debate cost me another 500 bucks for vest type pfd's
No, I think it is good that we can discuss like this, and it's good that we can give blokes a break when they deserve it, but not once have I seen this bloke admit responsibility. He has spent more time trying to convince the media that he is a "good father" and really, only he knows if that is true so it really isn't for us to judge.
What we can judge though is has he learned from it, have we learned from it? I know the latter is true, but in life generally and even more so in raising kids, we have to "own" our behaviour. We have to teach our kids that when certain behaviours affect themselves and others they shouldn't try to wheedle out of the consequences of those behaviours. If they don't own the behaviours and try to blame other circustances, then they don't learn from it generally and they don't learn from it in particular relating to responsibility. Nothing has indicated to me that this bloke has "owned" his behaviour, and that, more than the crisis he placed him and his kids into, is the saddest part of this fiasco. I can only visualise him as telling his kids that they were just "unlucky". I sincerely hope this is untrue and I apologise to him in advance if he has taught his kids the appropriate lesson that should have been learned.
I have attempted here not to kick a bloke when he's down and am just trying to illustrate that we can sometimes judge without going through things step by step before passing judgement. I am really just thinking out loud as to where *my* feelings lie on this issue. I would also like to state that if I ever got myself into this sort of strife, that fellow boaties could go through this process and better help *me* understand where I may have gone wrong, as on many occasions, and even at my age, I still don't own some of my behaviours.
I think we have to accept here that criticism will always exist on a chat board and we must try not to personalise it. As long as that criticism is seen as constructive and an aid to learning, then we can only better ours, and other peoples position, in relation to safety etc.
kev
It is important to stay cool, but be sure to not get frostbite.
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