Barra in SE Qld

[Fitzy]

Jim,
Riddle me this batman. What chance have Mary River cod got of surviving in the Brisbane River when the Brisbane River cod could not? Add another couple of migration barriers since the BRC carked it, add more catchment degredation, add increased water demands, add more introduced pest fish that are a chance of pretation upon cods eggs/fry/fingerlings (e.g. banded grunter, spanled perch, tilpia, lungfish), at the end of the day I'd like to think we're going to win, but realistically I think we're peeing into the wind with cod. But we arent going to stop trying just yet.

MRC breed in Big W if the numbers were available?
A- the numbers aren't available & are unlikely to ever be. (damn shame)
B- very little chance of it in Big W due to zero suitable nesting sites. (SEQWCorp wont allow artificial nesting sites to be put in the lake) Somerset possibly but the fluctuating water levels & turbid water reduce the odds.
However I'd like to think they can/will/do breed there. I've wasted alot of time, money & effort if they cant/wont/arent.

Barra,,,, exotic to the Brisbane River? I'm not convinced. Even if you're correct they're no more exotic to the "Brisbane River" than the "Mary River" cod.

Barra breeding in the brisbane river if they escape. Not possible according to QFS so that's no issue.

We're a stocking group, primarily for the purpose of creating, managing & developing recreational fisheries. As I stated earlier, conservation is a luxury, not a priority. We try to give it as much consideration as we can, nobody else (including govt bodies) does any on the ground work. If we were fully conservation driven we'd be stocking purple spotted gudgeons etc & killing every bloody bass we could find. While personally sympathetic to such issues, I can't bloody well do everything Jim.

We're a stocking group, not a government agency who can undo a couple of centuries of catchment abuse. We dont have the money, nor the resources to remotely be able to undertake what you describe. I'd like to refer you to the several landcare groups for the catchment (which I've done some work with in the past). I wont sit & cop the wrap for farmer brown & cos poor farming practices.

Were tackling the issues we can when possible;
-Maintaining the current fishery in the face of restricted access & increased angler pressure
-Reduce noxious & pest fish that threaten the recreation fishery
-Develope the recreational fishery
-Promote ethical & sustainable angling practices
-Promote & participate in conservation

Jim I'll ask your oppinion on something. Do you want to see all stocking for recreational fishing stopped within the catchment? What would you have us do about noxious & pest fish species?

Fitzy..

[Jim_Tait]

Lordy / Fitzy,

Agree mullet are a good idea (have made the same recommendation in a report to DNRM) myself - just laughed about Lordy's good environmental measure throw in a few mullet etc..

I don’t have to provide explanations for past stocking or translocation policies - I didn't support them or practice them!

Barra are WAY MORE EXOTIC to the upper Brisbane than Mary River Cod - Mary Cod, Brisbane Cod, Albert Cod, Logan Cod, Cooma Cod - even bloody Clarence Cod are all part of the same EASTERN COD species complex - genetic work has shown Mary Cod to be the closest living relative of Eastern Cod (Clarence Cod) PM me if you want the reference - so Brisbane Cod would be even more closer - probably just about genetically indistinct and definitely ecologically indistinct. Cod are the NATIVE top order predator of the upper freshwater reaches of the Brisbane catchment.

Rivers are not too cool all year round for barra to go walkabout especially when you get a fresh in summer - I know the species well enough.

Brisbane Cod went into an extinction spiral because of low numbers and poor habitat quality coupled with ongoing high fishing pressure and active catchment degradation until the day they checked out (and perhaps not all of them did - there are still recent records of large fish from the upper Stanley) - today catchment degradation has been halted/stabilised (there is more riparian vegetation cover now on many tributary streams than there was in the 50's, 60's) and can be rehabilitated (landcare revegetation etc) and fishing pressure can be managed through prohibition on taking and ultimately bag limits once populations re-established

The dams may not ever be fully suitable for breeding (artificial substrates could help - water authority red tape can be overcome) but many of the tributary streams are - I already mentioned that in my previous post - some including tribs of Big W have clear water, rocky substrates and perennial pools (PM me) - however dams are suitable deep water habitat to maintain a viable large populations of the species which can access tributary streams

Why am I not working in rehabilitating the Brisbane catchment - well I don't live there for starters - but I have worked there - some of my contributions are in a report to DNRM&E ‘Stanley River and Tributaries River Habitat & Processes Study –Condition and Trend Report (2003) – get a copy FYI and secondly I’m busy in working on rehabilitating Eastern Cod habitat in the catchment where I do live which is the Richmond

Yes, I do support stocking for recreational fishing in dams – species native to the catchment i.e. bass (&cod) are fine. Could even be convinced that barra and some principally estuarine species i.e., jack’s, trevally etc would be Ok in some smaller coastal dams if it could be demonstrated that there were no vulnerable natives. JPs which I love (I provided some of the first brood stock to Dilger’s hatchery for trials) also could also be Ok in a basin where they historically were – but in a basin where they were not – they’d be a drama as they can scale just about shear waterfalls to get to upper catchment areas and would slay unsuspecting frog and macroinvertebrate populations not used to such predation.

What to do about exotic species?? – stop putting new ones in – that is about the best you can do – strong translocation policies are part of it, better controls on the aquarium trade and outdoor ponds would also help. Barra may control but will not eradicate – catfish, banded grunter, tilapia – so it is BS to promote them as a solution to ‘noxious’ species – studies in Townsville Reservoirs showed Tilapia to be one of the things stocked barra would eat least in preference to dwindling populations of natives – bony bream etc

Yes I agree it does not need to be an either / or situation – be happy with your bass fishery in SE Qld, do the hard yards (politically and physically) to get Cod established again (another species online) and do some real ecological risk assessment to work out what artificial water bodies in SE Qld could be stocked with some of the more exotic species coming on line without causing impacts. – And I am a supporter of the hard work and conservation messages that the stocking groups do and promote.

[lordy]

Lordy / Fitzy,

Agree mullet are a good idea (have made the same recommendation in a report to DNRM) myself - just laughed about Lordy's good environmental measure throw in a few mullet etc..

Laugh all you like but its not as if they would be an angling target is it. So what other reason would there be to stock them? Incidentally, it was a Stanley River landcare group that wanted to stock Mullet but couldn't get a permit, so they wanted us to do it for them. Restoring the habit and stream health sounds like an enviromental benefit.

I don’t have to provide explanations for past stocking or translocation policies - I didn't support them or practice them!

Yes you do, you said so when you want Mary Cod stocked in the Brisbane. Incidentally, they are also stocked into other systems besides the Mary and the Brisbane as you know.

Rivers are not too cool all year round for barra to go walkabout especially when you get a fresh in summer - I know the species well enough.

They would freeze and die in winter when the frosts came if they tried to stay in the rivers above Wivenhoe.

Brisbane Cod went into an extinction spiral because of low numbers and poor habitat quality coupled with ongoing high fishing pressure and active catchment degradation until the day they checked out (and perhaps not all of them did - there are still recent records of large fish from the upper Stanley)

If you believe there is a chance they aren't extinct then you would have to object to stocking Mary cod on the grounds on the precautionary principle and cross breeding? Wouldn't you?

The Stanley is a great place for cod. Anything stocked into Wivenhoe wouldn't be able to get the Stanley unless it has a vertical leap of 100m. For mine, stocking the rivers with cod is of a much greater importance than stocking the dams.

Its a novelty to catch on in Somerset-Wivenhoe. Reports of catches of cod are rarer than hens teeth. Cod will remain a "novelty" fish while we can only purchase them in lots of a 2000-3000 a year. That is joke sized stocking in a dams the size of Wivenhoe and Somerset. And it looks like it could get worse is MacDonald hatchery stops supplying free cod.

Yes I agree it does not need to be an either / or situation – be happy with your bass fishery in SE Qld, do the hard yards (politically and physically) to get Cod established again

Your entire argument comes down to save the cod and not much else. There will be plenty of places for cod if barra/jacks were stocked into Wivenhoe, especially if Somerset Dam/Stanley River/Brisbane rivers are used for stocking them. Add in other areas dam/rivers, such as Maroon/Moograh, that stock them as well and there is no shortage of cod waters. The stocking of other species will not stop cod existing in this rivers and dams.

Last year the QFS was talking about stopping the stocking of Mary Cod completely. Apparently no genetics work was done on the breeding cod when they started the recovery program. Until the genetics research is done it is possible no more cod will be released for stocking by the QFS. We can't use SIP funds to pay for it so it someone else's job to get the research done. So we may have no cod to stock at all.

As an example, SWFSA had found several thousand cod fingerlings of quality size. At first, we were not allowed to stock because they had unknown genetics. Given it was only a few thousand we put up a fight and they agreed it wouldn't do any damage to the gene pool with such relatively small numbers. We then got told they were not allowed to supply them because they had no licence to be a cod provider. We fought hard again and QFS eventually allowed them to be donated. In the end they all died at the fish farm because the whole process took so long.

We can't get them at a reasonable rate (>50c, preferrably 25 cents), we can't get them at all because the commercial supplier is hopeless, we can't get them because the non-commercial hatchery that does supply them might not be allowed to supply them on genetic reasons. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a flying f@#k about stocking cod or not anymore.

If the price remains at $2 a fish then it is an inappropriate use of SIP funds for SWFSA to stock them at that price. Their stocking at that price seems more environmental than angler based. So let some green-based organisation pay for them to be stocked as an environmental issue, put their money where their mouths are so to speak.

Mangrove Jacks are currently going through the trials in NQ. Wivenhoe is expected to be approved (Somerset won't be approved as far as I know). They will be stocked when/if they are made available.

J-P: #Endangered in SEQ, extinct or close to it in Brisbane. A great fish to stock, unfortunately not going to happen in the next 10+ years. No one has the money to pay for the genetic work and trials. SWFSA even tried a letter writing campaign to raise some funds for it but was only able to raise promised of a few thousand, well short of the $30K it would need to get started.

Mullet: I doubt anyone can object and be taken seriously. Well actually QFS have objected. FFSAQ and some stocking groups are fighting hard for mullet at present.

Barra: may never be approved. But I don't think they are as mutually exclusive to Cod as you seem to expect then to be. Given the unavailability of Mary cod they might be the only top order predator available.

[Randall]

Lordy...some interesting stuff mate. I know you have been researching for quite a few years now....I was`nt aware of the multiple walls you continually come up against. I applaude your, and SWFSA`s tenacity in getting things done.

Randall.

[MikeC]

Having read all of this, here's my 5 cents worth.
Mary River Cod and their close relations are struggling for a foothold ANYwhere. So currently cod fry are almost impossible to come by and that's a crying shame. I find it very hard to support stocking of Barra - a species under no apparent threat of extinction - if it means the cod are put under any more pressure. And no, I'm not so naiive that I believe bass would ignore cod fry as a meal.
We have wonderful fisheries in the region for which I'm very thankful. Obviously there are more bass here than nature ever intended, [and to satisfy the hungry anglers I've seen lately who fish to fill the fridge that better not change!] but it's a fact that bass and cod have in the past co-existed. Can anyone out there tell me that cod and bara will do likewise? You're all probably thinking that's why we need a trial run! Well all I can say is it better be very tightly controlled.
Call me stupid but I couldn't kill a bass in a fit! Barra, on the other hand, introduced in direct competition with cod and bass are another matter!

[MikeC]

Been thinking about it a bit more. Supposing a trial does go ahead, maybe it'd be a good idea to implement compulsory filling-out of catch cards before and after their introduction to gauge their impact. That should enable the stocking group to juggle the numbers and ensure that other equally desirable species maintain healthy populations, and, judging by past performances, they [the stocking groups] should cope very well with that.
So, while I still want more info, as I voted in the survey, I'm definitely not against it. I just hope it all works out and that all species can co-exist. But please don't forget those cod.

[goodoo2]

I agree with Jim on this issue. He makes some excellent points.

I am also disappointed with the general lack of environmental responsibility shown by anglers, including in the "Barra in SE QLD" debate. Most talk the talk, but when it comes to the crunch they just want the angling thrills, no matter how inappropriate the angling, or the species being stocked for the angling, is!

I'm also worried by the "safari park" attitude to these dams. Yep, they're dams, and you guys (admirably) earn money to stock them, but it doesn't give you "anything goes" rights. As Jim has said, they are connected to rivers with endangered natives in them.

Tying in with all of these thoughts are the comments on the scarcity of Mary River Cod fingerlings and their expense, supply difficulties, etc..... Well instead of pushing Barra into a river where they were never more than a very rare estuarine visitor to, how about getting behind the poor Mary River Cod? How about putting the time, the passion and the $$$ behind the Mary River Cod and getting that genetic research done, getting a angler-driven breeding program going, and getting a good supply of Mary River Cod at a good price?

And then putting them into the habitats Jim has identified and getting fisheries going for these fantastic and unique fish?

How about we abondon the cheap thrills or hopes thereof and do the hard yards for a unique native almost genetically identical to Brisbane River Cod and that therefore has much more of a place there?

Cheers


Simon

[Randall]

Simon...understand your thoughs on this matter but Mary River Cod is not an option. (Cant get em in numbers) So its all void going down that track. Barra are far more suited to SE Qld for all the reasons already stated. Yes, we do confess we like the thrills associated with Big Barra Hunting...I would`nt call them cheap though!! They come at a huge cost!!

Randall.

[Fitzy]

Simon,
Shooting from the hip is all fine mate, but you gotta select your targets a bit better. A bit of background research before placing foot firmly in mouth helps the shots get fired in the right direction.
It has actually been me & this stocking group that has been at the forefront of pushing for all of the things you've mentioned & more.... for Mary River cod.
Also one of the few groups actively allocating funds, in advance for MR cod fingerling purchase.
By all means have your say, but I guess we'd rather you simply said thanks and continued on your way.

You've love of cod is well documented & is to be commented, most do, some dont.

Dont let your passion & a little propaganda get in the road of the real issues. Stocking in lakes means little or nothing to the conservation status for the species & if we beleive some of the researchers, we're possibly doing more damage to the species by stocking them. I would have thought you'd know all about that. The only reason QFS allowed MR cod to be stocked into lakes outside the Mary catchment is to make sure they could be a regulated fish (ie people can catch & kill them) as well as enjoying protected status in other locations. Best of both worlds so to speak. More a stunt than any real concern about the status of the fish.

In the meantime we have noxious & introduced pest fish growing in numbers while QFS have either no money, ability or means to control them. WE do, its called fish control by predation & angler pressure.

If you want to help on the MR cod issue, may I advise you write to Mike Dredge & Dr Peter Jackson at QFS & persuade these guys to allow hatcheries that have MRC brood stock to breed & sell to stocking groups.


Fitzy..

[lordy]

I agree with Jim on this issue. #He makes some excellent points.

I am also disappointed with the general lack of environmental responsibility shown by anglers, including in the "Barra in SE QLD" debate. #Most talk the talk, but when it comes to the crunch they just want the angling thrills, no matter how inappropriate the angling, or the species being stocked for the angling, is!

I'm also worried by the "safari park" attitude to these dams. #Yep, they're dams, and you guys (admirably) earn money to stock them, but it doesn't give you "anything goes" rights. #As Jim has said, they are connected to rivers with endangered natives in them.

There will still be plenty of room for cod in the Brissy river. This isn't the either-or situation people seem to think it is. The rivers should be treated differently from the dams. Cod can have the Somerset Dam, the Stanley River, the upper Brisbane river, the rivers coming down from the ranges, even the lower Brissy River to themselves. Thats a LOT of potential cod country. The only bit that Wivenhoe barra could inhabit would be the lower Brissy if they jumped the wall (and survived), and even then they'd probably expire from the cold in the shallower water, or go over the wier at Mt Crosby and into the salt wate, and not be able to return to the fresh. I find the idea that they'd run will upstream of the dam odd given the overnight temperatures and impediments they'd face up there, not to mention their natural spawning urges would take them down stream.

Tying in with all of these thoughts are the comments on the scarcity of Mary River Cod fingerlings and their expense, supply difficulties, etc..... #Well instead of pushing Barra into a river where they were never more than a very rare estuarine visitor to, how about getting behind the poor Mary River Cod? #How about putting the time, the passion and the $$$ behind the Mary River Cod and getting that genetic research done, getting a angler-driven breeding program going, and getting a good supply of Mary River Cod at a good price? And then putting them into the habitats Jim has identified and getting fisheries going for these fantastic and unique fish?

The problem is we are NOT allowed to help with the research into cod genetics since we can NOT use SIP funds to do it. We tried. End of story. Given the sheer lack of numbers available why not stick them into the rivers where they can breed, as opposed to a dam where they make nice, tasty fillets and not much else. Waste of limited resource.

How about we abondon the cheap thrills or hopes thereof and do the hard yards for a unique native almost genetically identical to Brisbane River Cod and that therefore has much more of a place there?
Cheers
Simon

Barra aren't being considered for Somerset, so that leaves one massive dam that could soak up every single available MR cod fingerling and come back for more. We put 100,000-150,000 fish per year in Somerset. Of course we'd need $300,000 a year to put 150,000 cod, we have just about $35,000. If we put 10,000 Cod in that would leave a paltry $15000 for the rest of the species combines. Its kind of pathetic to stock a dam Somersets size with $15,000 + 10,000 fish.

[goodoo2]

Fitzy, not trying to argue with you, just putting it as I see it.

Re background, I've got a pretty good knowledge of the situation with the coastal cod species, hence my comments on the issue.

I didn't realise that some attempts to further MR Cod in the Brisbane system were being hampered by the dreaded bureaucratic red tape.

I hope that with some pressure applied you might be able cut through that red tape and concentrate on stocking MR Cod rather than Barra.

I must also make the point that, as much as you guys want to believe it, you can't guarantee that smallish Barra won't whizz up the Brisbane River in summer to have a munch of whatever gets in their way. I think this a concern that needs to be considered.

Cheers


Simon

[Fitzy]

Simon,
Barra cant just whiz back up the river, a couple of weirs stopping fish movement (jeez another hot topic)
You've read alot on the native cods cause, can you, off the top of you head quote any figures on cold water polution from major impoundments? I'm thinking that our efforts below Big W could be for naught as there's only about 60km of river down to Mt Crosby weir. Cold water could stop any breeding efforts.
In Big W were unlikely to ever get cod to breed so its really only for recreational fishing & pest control that we stock them.

Red tape? Mate I'm up to my back wheels in it. Tried some of my old tricks to get around this one but got nowhere. Went public with in & still got nowhere, only got a few more enemies along the way.

You also need to ask yourself, WHY did the BRC cark it? If it couldn't hack the pressure what chance have MRC got in a system with even more pressure on it & even more competition from other fish. Are we p!$$ing into the wind on the lower catchment? Fair chance I recon. The Stanley & to a lesser extent the Upper Brisso are another story.

Like I've always said, we've got money to spend on MR cod, but there's bugger all available. All the while we have noxious, translocated & pest species breeding at an alarming rate. These include: spangled perch, banded grunter, fork tailed catfish, tilapia, redclaw, carp, gambusia. Little wonder the BRC are gone & JPs with em. Last definate JP I heard of in the Brisso was 8 years ago.
It would be good to head these fish off before they go down the brissy & back up the Bremer or other systems feeding into Moreton Bay.
Some folks would paint you a picture of us volunteers as rednecked yokels who yell YEEEHAAAHHH as we pour as many fish in as many spots as we can. Its a case of mind over matter, we dont mind cause they dont matter.

Fitzy..

[McCod]

60000 barra stocked into Boondoomba. 1 fish caught.

[burdekinbarra]

Reminds me of back when they wanted to put Nile Perch in Burdekin Falls Dam. Thank god they didnt. Barra are great and we all love them, but further study is needed to determine what effect (if any) they would have on the fish populations of your other native species down there.

Barra from hatcheries and in particular barra farms are bred to be the best. they grow fast and they are extra agressive. Our barra up here that we stock in local creeks grow at over 1mm per day. they have done a great job of bringing the numbers of smaller fish back down to where they are supposed to be, but this is all natural.

my suggestion would be to talk with the freshwater fisheries extension officer at SFC Bribie Is

[fishy_phil]

just my two bobs worth with the angling pressure solution to pest problems id just like to say in regards to the queensland fisheries stand on tilapia they have it wrong they should be encouraginging people to target them and keep them for the plate instead they have a ban on possessing them, this just sounds ludicris.
this in conjunction with stocking a top order perdator ie barra and or MRC would be the best option in my humble opinion.
but these are my thoughts if you agree very good if you dont thats good too.
cheers
phil