Stuart
Are we talking rods with cheap guides here that have this reactive rusting going on?? or does this occur with Fuji stainless guides as well ?? doest it depend on the percentage of carbon/graphite in the rod? Im surprised to hear of this problem as a lot of upmarket factory rods dont have underbinding on there light rods and certainly on nearly every fly rod for all guides except the two strippers!
Also what is the idea of reversing the stripper guide?
Would just like to add something here.
I've replaced many guides over the years on different standards of rods, mainly mine. I've always underbound, and 99% of the time I have used cheap fuji guides. I have never seen any rust on the feet of these guides when covered with binding and epoxy.
My guides usually die because the whole lot gets bashed around in my boat.
GO THE CRUISER UTES!
....OH WHAT A FEELING!
Having built rods commercially, I think that with rods under about 3kg, you can do away with underbinds. The guides used on these rods are usually quite small and flexible, allowing the guide feet to flex with the rod. A small piece of felt or masking tape under the guide feet can give you some insurance against blank damage but of the 100's of light spin and baitcast rods i made, none broke due to damage from a guide. As for rust - if you epoxy over the bindings correctly, the points where the blanks meet the guides should be covered by the epoxy, excluding any air and therefore corrosion. I underbind all rods from about 4kgs and up as the extra weight is irrelevant given the actual weight of the outfit. NEVER underbind guides on fly rods as it dampens the action and adds weight.
Just my 2 cents
Hi there Matt,
I would have to disagree with you, imo the underbind looks tidy if kept plain and simple, with perhaps a tiny trim band.
I also think lighter rods bend a whole lot more than rods under 6kg, probably with
the exception of a heavy rod with an extra fast taper. As for guides that flex, I don't know what degree of flexability a metal guide would have... I could be wrong
GO THE CRUISER UTES!
....OH WHAT A FEELING!
In all my years of rod building I have never come across guide that hasn’t rusted, except that of Titanium. Titanium is one of the most corrosion resistant materials we can use on rods. In having said that if you should leave a hook attached to the guide then the guide will go a nice shade of green. You can’t always judge a guides quality by its price tag. Hell, even Fuji is well over priced and some of those guides aren’t cracked up to what they should be. All Fuji guides eventually rust no matter what you read in mags stating other wise.
I have built well over 20 thousand rods in my time as a rod builder “Documented” and I can state here for the record that no matter how good you think you are at coating rods, you will never get the coating to bond 100% between rod blank and guide feet. This is were the water penetrates and things start heading south. It may take months; it may take years, but trust me when I say it will happen. I have striped rods from year gone by to see rust under the guide feet. I have also striped rods that haven’t seen their first birthday to find rust. As rod builders, it’s our duty to prevent or just slow down this rust problem, the manufacturers are at fault here not the rod builder.
Stuart
Roz,
Its fine to disagree - I was just stating an opinion. It depends on what sort of rod you have. Why dampen the action of a $400 graphite blank with too much binding? Light rods have specific actions and you significantly alter these actions by underbinding. If you're not concerned then underbind away! I prefer to keep the action of the rod as is and not have a "clubby" top-heavy rod because I've added too much weight to the top haplf of the rod.
Stuart
20,000 rods? and "Documented". Did you work for a big brand, pumping out off the shelf rods? I was a humble custom rod builder. I was more concerned with quality, rather then quantity. My belief is that is better to maintain the action of the rod and keep weight down on quality blanks, therefore no underbinds. As I stated before, a piece of masking tape or felt between the guide foot and the blank is ample protection. Remember this is for rods 3kg and lighter.
Matt
hey Matt
I wouldn't normally speak on Stu's behalf, he does that quite well, without any prompting or help from me..ay Stu.
He is also a HUMBLE custom rod builder.
I've just re fitted my 2kg bass rod with guides and a nice butt wrap, I used the old guides again.
It's a light graphite rod. The underbind has made no difference what so ever. After all, the over bind covers the same area as the underbind, and some use two layers of overbind, I use one, as well as the 2 to 3 coats of epoxy, or more depending on your preference.
As for "keeping the weight down on quality rods".
How much do you think around 12 meters of Gudebrod A would weigh?
r.
GO THE CRUISER UTES!
....OH WHAT A FEELING!
Allrights ya got me in too.. I would have to agree that underbind isnt needed , especially with fly rods not that i'm a guru with these type of rods nor do i think its necessary with the lighter rods as YES it can tend to spoil the rods action IF one is that particular with a rods action..
Unless ya pay the $$ for guides they will eventually show signs of rust, dont matter what ya do to em....
have paid attention to some Custom Rod builders who are even particular with the thickness nad type of resin used to prevent spoiling a particular rods action..
Otherwise ive missed sumthin along the way...
Cheers
Matt
I did contract for rod company’s years ago, like every one on this forum, we all need to eat. Did this for many years along side building reel custom rods, not the mass produced version I was building at the time. Custom rod building is fine if you can get a big enough customer base and regular enough work to make it viable. Quality is all I do and most other part time builders, that’s why we make rods isn’t it? The topic of should we or shouldn’t we under bind certain rods is a topic that has been covered so may times yet so many miss the one issue concerning the fact why rod actions are effected. If we took two identical blanks using single foot guides, we under bound and over bound one and then we just over bound the other, what would happen? Well I think you would have trouble finding the reel difference between the two.
Most if not all people think it’s the under bind that’s dampening the action, well I hate to bust up some ones party but it’s not the thread that’s dampens action, it’s the guide foot on its own. Next time you’re holding a guide, try and bend the foot in your hands, good luck and I hope you don’t need any stiches. Guide feet are way to dam thick for the size and weight they are required to hold. I think once some of you have tried this little exercise you should under stand what I’m talking about. As for putting felt or masking tape under the guide foot in some attempt to stop rusting and so on, I think its wishful thinking. The masking tape will last approximately one or two casts before the foot pierces through. I have seen this method and tried it as well, does nothing mate.
Rod coating’s can have an effect on the outcome of weight and action dampening. There are a few issues here that are nearly always over looked. When I look at coatings I always ask the manufacturer for the solids content, that’s all I want to know. Don’t care what the wholesaler says, in my experience they know very little to nothing. Ask a wholesale what the solids content is and they will do blab bla blab la, what ever mate. The other issue is rod coating thickness, some people go way over board and trey and dump enough on in one go, why?, I don’t know.
Stu
COST!!!!Originally Posted by Stuart
because most do not want to pay what the 'real' cost of building a rod. so most 'custom' builders cut corners where possible.
as for rusty guides.. i agree, they pretty well all rust with time,no matter how well you apply the finish..
underbinds, i hate how all these expensive rods don't have them, but i don't care anymore, I used to always put underbinds, purely for peace of mind..
how often do you see a rod with unessecary underbinds that are twice as long as the guide foot?? i feel that these will affect the blank a bit once the finish is applied, & it looks ugly.. i think we all did it at the start thinking it was decorative..
my 2 cents
WooooHooooo they're comming out of the wood work!!!!
It's a battle of the titans!!!
The under binding I'm referring to only just edges out from the foot of the guide by a minimal amount,. I'm not referring to light fly rods.
Hey Stu, I hadn't considered specific gravity.
r.
Last edited by roz; 22-02-2007 at 03:50 PM. Reason: addition
GO THE CRUISER UTES!
....OH WHAT A FEELING!
This is my point Stu. You obviously need the guide foot. What you dont need is extra binding thread. These days with the "new"design rods that have more guides, underbinding the guides on light rods and all that extra weight, particularly near the tip, will ruin the action of a light (1-3kg) rod. Similarly, when coating the binding with epoxy, only use enough to cover the binding and make sure that it soaks through to the guide foot. Any way, you can only build what the customer wants. It so happpens that some of my customers were very specific about their light rods and most (if not all) requested no underbinding on expensive blanks. It doesn't matter with crap blanks - put as much rubbish on as you want.
Anyway, not much point in prolonging the argument. Roz, you asked for an opinion on whether you need underbinding for your rod. My opinion is yes for a 3-5kg rod. On a 2kg bass rod my opinion is no.
If you can still find one, pick up a copy of Ian Miller's Rod Crafter. Perhaps reading this publication will give you anohter perspective.
Matt
thanks Mat,
I've formed my opinion with a bit of outside help from the guys here, but at the end of the day I am the one who has to be happy with the end result. Have learned never to say "never". Thanks for your input, looking forward to hearing more from you.
r.
GO THE CRUISER UTES!
....OH WHAT A FEELING!
Now the next issue, CP or Not to CP. No seriously. Good points are made on all sides from pro to the newbie. This is what forums are all about. I personally don't underbind my rods, only stuff I do is heavy saltwater gear. (which I try to stay away from). I also use titanium guides and spend several hours preping my guide feet. First thing that we need to remember is corrosion requires oxygen, whether we underbind or not, the finish is there for several reasons and that is to hold the wraps together, protect the wraps from damage and to fill any voids in the thread and around the guide foot. It is not an epoxy glue, it has a minimal gluing strengh (Stu can fill more in on this as he has spent years developing his own finish, I heard they use it to fix the space shuttles windows). Anyway all finish will crack to some degree over time and all we can do is do our utmost to prevent this, underbinding is a good way and a very well prepped guide foot is another, but can everyone custom builder spend that much time on a set guides when a customer is already in shock over the price of the rod. I'm lucky I have a full time job to live on so I really don't make money on my rods for the amount of time I put in. How anyone could make a living I don't know and commend anyone who does.
I have had the pleasure and luck to have many people teach me from Stuart through to Doc Ski with many inbetween, these guys all have different ways of doing things, some say there way is best and the only way, I however take a bit of everyones veiws/techniques mix them with mine and use them in building my rods, that's what makes a Bearclaw's Custom Rods not a Doc Ski rod etc etc.
One thing I have learned is that we all do things different and I'm continuing to learn, so keep it coming.
Hey Roz you might be able to teach me that girly crosswraps stuff.
Your spot on Myles, every one is different and every one has different ideas. As for coatings, well that’s a whole other story mate.
Stu
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote