Water in Fuel

[impulse492f]

well i find it totally amazing that some have been using the incorrect filter even though this has been a well known thing for quite some time. just goes to show how much experience really means especially when it's used to try and take people down. for the manufacturers to wake up and start producing petrol suitable elements for these filters has only been in recent times. before that they were simply being used in a totally incorrect environment in a outboard application and what's more many obviously never realised this.

now it doesn't matter how much fuel anybody has been able to shove through a filter as if the manufacturer specifices 45 litres an hour then this is what the filter is rated for and why anybody would want to use a 45 litre/hour filter on an outboard is still beyond me, regardless of so called experience.

if one is pushing 90 litres an hour through a 45 litre an hour rated filter then something it simply outside specifications and you do this at your own risk. but then to attempt to override the manufacturers specifications is sheer inexperience, you simply don't do that.

as for glass water trap bowls this is why they make alloy/metal bowls and it really should not be all that difficult to understand why especially in a marine situation.

the question still stands "why would anybody want to use a CAV on an outboard"

price should be the least of the considerations as why use any filter that can not technically handle a outboard properly?

........................................... ............................................

[Mantaray]

so what you going to do impluse use a filter that the manufacturer rates at 45 litres/hour or use a filter that's best suited to the job? at least if you go with the correct one for petrol etc then at least bother to find out what the "complete" setup is rated for! these people that expect to wack big heaps of petrol through 2 micron filters and call it experience have no idea of the specs

[Mr__Bean]

Just for my clarity, was this a topic regarding water in fuel?

Or was it a pissing competition over who knows the most about filters?

Or maybe, some have just turned it into yet another "I know best session"?

- Darren

[Mantaray]

water in fuel, fuel filters go hand in hand if you were to ask me as well as any other means be it mechanical or whatever in combating the problem? but maybe you need to ask the people who actually brought up the filter issue in the first place? the worst situation is advice that is incorrect to many gullible people might actually take it as gospel!

[HarryO]

Hi Pete...

No dis-respect to your post,or previous experiences intended.

The way the Racor filter is designed, for water to pass thru the
head unit into the line toward the engine, the filter had to be
either faulty, (the lower inner seal damaged/missing), or the
wrong element fitted (lower inner seal wont contact properly),
or the unit was simply FULL of water.

If I lay the boat for more than 6 weeks, I remove the
drain screws located at the bottom of each fuel bowl
and simply drain the bowls into a clean glass jar, and do the same
with the drain bowl on the filter, and inspect for water...

If no drops are present, I pour it back into the tank..

No disposal, no wastage...

The Racor units have a high impact fuel resistant plastic bowl,
not metal, which is see thru, even tho its near impossible to
detect water by this method..

Lloyds of London will not insure a vessel with the CAV filter fitted,
could not find a reason for this, but I surmise that because its
not toughened glass, its not approved. I may be wrong.

Lloyds underwrites insurance for several other insurance
companys' marine policies, so asking the question of your
insurance company may be in order...

Better to know now, rather than later..

I know of at least one large marine dealership that still
fits, and promotes the sale of the cav units for outboards,
(go figure) despite being aware of the situation...

Ultimately, I think they know they can't be held liable,
as the Australian Maritime safety law says that, ultimately,
the vessel owner, or its nominated skipper, bears the SOLE
RESPONSIBILITY to ensure the craft is in ALL RESPECTS safe, meets
outfitting requirements, and is operated by competent persons.

Think about that for a minute.....

Harry..

[HarryO]

And another addenum to the prior post.

No filter, irrespective of brand or style, will stop water.

Thats precisely why water traps are present.

Different parts of the filter will filter at different rates,
at best around 8 microns, worst at 20 microns.

A standard Ryco Z14 automotive filter is rated 4-8 microns.

They wont stop water, either..

Fitting filters in series/paralel? Please explain!

The first will filter at, say 10 microns, and the second at the same.

What have you stopped?

Outboards (non EFI) don't have a fuel pump per se, and rely
on crankcase vacuum to suck fuel up via a one way valve
to the fuel bowl.

Fitting two filters will significantly reduce the ability to
effectively perform this task, while realising that is twice
as hard for the engine to suck pre-mixed fuel thru the
filter, as it is for unmixed fuel...

Regular inspections is the best method of preventative
maintenance.

Harry...

[impulse492f]

so what you going to do impluse use a filter that the manufacturer rates at 45 litres/hour or use a filter that's best suited to the job? at least if you go with the correct one for petrol etc then at least bother to find out what the "complete" setup is rated for! these people that expect to wack big heaps of petrol through 2 micron filters and call it experience have no idea of the specs

Well due to all the filter debate (because of water issues, which I have) it would seem I could go either way CAV or RACOR as my Signature 492 as it runs at 32.2 L/PH so the CAV would be fine.

On inspecting my rig, the previous owner has gone with a RACOR (3213 Element) and it has caused nothing but trouble, I've had water through the system more then once.

I just removed the RACOR filter element and opened it up.

you should of seen the mess, the inside was badly rusted on the in-coming element/casing (before the filter element) and on the out-going grid (going into the motor).

I would of gone the CAV with the 296 but due to the issue with sulphur eating away the element I'm might go the Ryco petrol element as its only about $10 apposed to $88 for the replacement RACOR one

Anybody know the micron of the Ryco element? as the RACOR is 10 micron's

I might buy a new CAV system for $88.90 (BIAS c/w filter) as I’m better off financially next time I need to replace the filter (Ryco petrol).

I would have thought that a purpose built Outboard filter element would use stainless steel (316) within the element. Does anybody know if the Ryco is stainless?

Now before you jump down my neck about the rusted element, the motor was fully serviced in Dec 05 and the element replaced.

Can you let us know what filter system you run, as I would be interested?

(Now what will you read into this Mantaray, how will you pull this apart, change it, move it around and imply a completely different meaning……. Waiting with interest.)


Link of interest, nice SS version of the RACOR http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/t...rt=16&posts=27

[Mantaray]

impluse, 32.2 lph based on what, that very precise? so is that full through put?

also most fuel filter element casings are steel so rust is going to be eventually expected but if that element was changed in Dec 05 (last 2 months) then you would really have to question it being rusted in this short time? in 2 months if that element is as you describe then you have much more than a water in fuel problem! a lot bigger problem and if that elemnet is rusted out in 2 months boy o boy someone has stuffed up somewhere or you have been taken for a ride!

expecting a fuel filter element to be 316? oh my! don't think many would want to fork out the $$'s and besides if you change your element based on use or at least every 12 months then there simply isn't a problem, your barking up the wrong bush if you think otherwise but what's new?

in any event harryo has covered things quite nicely, especially the water separation v filter element bit, many obviously don't understand the difference.

might add a a bit more latter on the in-line stuff?

[Skipsta]

I just bought a smaller Racor Filter 45pgh, and plan to run it in series with my big Racor filter. I have a 90hp Yammie 2 stroke (carbies) which has a maximum use of 37lph. Do you guys think this will work or will it starve the engine because not enough will get through?

I'm willing to try anything and go to any expense to stop water getting into my donk.

I've bought the unit but I'm not going to fit it till I get some constructive feedback from some of you guys

[impulse492f]

lol I knew you couldn't let my post go, talk about fishing, hooked you line and sinker

impluse, 32.2 lph based on what, that very precise? so is that full through put?

1,000rpm 3.6
2,000rpm 6.6
3,000rpm 16.2
4,000rpm 21.0
5,000rpm 31.2
5,300rpm 32.2

Based on flow testing i did out on Georges River.

also most fuel filter element casings are steel so rust is going to be eventually expected but if that element was changed in Dec 05 (last 2 months) then you would really have to question it being rusted in this short time? in 2 months if that element is as you describe then you have much more than a water in fuel problem! a lot bigger problem and if that elemnet is rusted out in 2 months boy o boy someone has stuffed up somewhere or you have been taken for a ride!

again you didn't let me down, yes there is a problem here. The guy I bought it of was told the element was changed; you have to believe someone and would think the "certified" service centre would not lie. I would say the element is about 12 months old.

expecting a fuel filter element to be 316? oh my! don't think many would want to fork out the $$'s and besides if you change your element based on use or at least every 12 months then there simply isn't a problem, your barking up the wrong bush if you think otherwise

It would be a bit more pricey but hey didn't you say somewhere why skimp? The price of a Ryco is about $10, right? the price of a replacement RACOR is $88 ???? why? the inside of the RACOR looks like any other filter I've pulled apart, metal, filter element, gaskets (and they looked of poor quality) so why the extreme price? They should be SS. I would buy what worked for me and was a balance of price v quality.

but what's new?

mmmmm and

in any event harryo has covered things quite nicely, especially the water separation v filter element bit, many obviously don't understand the difference.

I agree some water will get through but isn't it some level of protection?

might add a a bit more latter on the in-line stuff?

Can't wait for it,

By the way you didn't mention your set-up?

and i still love you

[Sahara53]

Mr_Bean, I purchased the fuel from the same place on both occasions and that is a local general store. It is the only fuel supply for about 20km in any direction and is used by all boaties locally and is the same fuel used in cars. This a very busy spot and am comfortable that there would be sufficient turnover through the bowser to ensure that the fuel is not stale.
I thought that my covering of the boat had been good enough - bloody hell it would take me over an hour just to set the thing free of the tarps, planks, ropes, swearing, cursing and then there was the loading up.
Panda (funny that's my nickname!) your suggestion seems worth a try. As my daughter is to study Physics and Chemistry this year, we have just discussed this as a possible project to experiment with.
Thanks folks I hope all enjoy your next boating session!

Peter A

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Harry, G'day all

You obviously know filters... thats great.
My point was that the water got through the racor filters .... 3 different NEW filters / housings... 3 different boats.... correct filter element, general usage with minimal amounts of water present in the bowl.... please explain !
as you know, water separation works on specific gravity / density .... water being more dense, falls to the bottom, hence the water in the bowl.
I never stated this specifically, probably didnt have to.... never said the element filtered the water out.... was commenting on the filter element letting water pass by it.

I really love the design and construction of the Racor housing... just a shame they arent as good as they claim.
And why CAV havent designed a poly carbonate bowl is beyond me.

Your comments on the insurance are welcomed and duly noted.
Just a question... why are they totally insurance legal on land, but not in the water?

I really dont mind what people do or what filter they buy, just offering my experience and attempting to stop the same thing happening to others.

Incidentally, the 296 that is now incorrect has never, ever broken down on me.... if it had, filter paper would be transferred through to the factory in line filter... so I really dont think it is panic stations over the 296 element.

The original 296 was designed for diesel and petrol... read this Mantaray ya halfwit.

The 296 filter is now recommended only for diesel. I am still waiting to see if the original Lucas 296 is the problem, or to see if it extends to other brands, making 296 compatibles, not that it is a great issue, because....

The Ryco R2132P is a 296 substitute that is recommended for all fuels as stated above. This is what I will be using, now that this new information is at hand.

When buying replacement filters over the years... NO ONE HAS EVER MENTIONED THAT THE 296 IS NO LONGER RECOMMENDED FOR PETROL.
Obviously the manufacturers told the dealers, but the dealers have failed to pass on the information... typical

Mantaray, if I am so wrong about CAV, and you are so right...please post some technical information to make me eat my words.

Until then...go FK yaself.

Now, I stand by my experience which says.
3 Racors, 3 letdowns, 1 motor rebuild.
Over 24 CAV's in various diesel and petrol applications, both marine and earthmoving.... NEVER A PROBLEM, never any maintenance issues with the filters, never broken a glass bowl and efinitely never any water.

I thank you Gentlemen, for a lively debate.

Pete

[uripper]

Just for my clarity, was this a topic regarding water in fuel?

Or was it a pissing competition over who knows the most about filters?

Or maybe, some have just turned it into yet another "I know best session"?

- Darren

The TV's crook & ya cruising the boards when WHAMMO ... ya stumble into a thread like this ... pure quality entertainment ... 4 days ago when I popped in 2cents worth it was very benign, now its a festering free-for-all ... $50 on the red corner ... Darren, you've called this strike perfectly ... but the weathers really crappy & everone's a little edgey ... so what the heck ... let'm go for it ... though "go FK yaself" may be gettin a bit personal ... sometimes these types of threads are funnier than "Joke of the Day".... Uh Oh here comes the Mod police ...
Happy Days - MalM

Ps - I have palpatations when my baby starts drinking more than 20 litres/hr - these guys are talking 100+ .... must go with the territorty ... the bigger the donk, the bigger the ...

[Mantaray]

hey pete your doing a complete job of it all by yourself the problem is you can't accept what is real and what is not. the 296 at 2 micron could only be ever designed for one thing, diesel! no brainer with that one. 2 micron if anybody would have done their homework says it all. oh apart from the 45 lph

the problem is water will go through any filter, when there is all water and no fuel, it's that simple, filters don't stop water, water separators are supposed to handle that and some manufacturers claim that a pair of filters in line with water separators will handle water twice as good a only one but then that depends on lots of things that many don't even think of.

oh and the racor design might be good just a pity they don't powder coat it better, bit of a trap that one for young players, something called experience.

you know even an old fashion 200 suzi is cabable of dragging 120 lph through a CAV296 but oh boy that is stretching the friendship, way out of it's class, sure it will do it but why would you?? why would you want to, nothing that would be based on experience thats for sure! and you should never say never, very bad mistake that one, experience or otherwise!

at least pete your willing to talk, well sort of? unlike some of the other dill brains

[impulse492f]

Incidentally, the 296 that is now incorrect has never, ever broken down on me.... if it had, filter paper would be transferred through to the factory in line filter...

I'm tempted to stay with the 296, as you stated I would expect to see debris from the paper as well.

All I kwon is that the current RACOR isn't doing a good job so a switch is needed.

Further more looking inside the 3213 filter there doesn't seem to be a lot of space between the filter wall and filter paper to allow the water to fall to the collection cup. My thoughts are that the fuel/water mix is penetrating the filament paper to early and coursing it to saturate before the water is separated.

I'm going to buy a 296 & Ryco element (as there sooooo cheap) and do a comparison.