Hi guys...
Don't want to fan any flames here, but Lucas recommends
the 296 for diesel fuel only..
We used to stock/sell both cav and racor, plus ryco,
franz, dia-ichi and coopers..
We received a bulletin from the distributor about mid '01 stating
that the chemicals (sulphurs, if I remember correctly)
in petrol breaks down (eats) the medium used in
diesel filter elements (the 296), and if selling the unit for
petrol applications, an alternate element was to be used...
Harry....
Hooley Dooley never did I think that I would get the response to my question as I have. You guys have been fantastic, your wealth of knowledge and experience is outstanding and it certainly puts me into the beginners class. I take all points on board (and read with great interest the to & fro between Mantaray and Grand_Marlin). Thanks also to Impulse, Blaze and it would seem that as per PPanthers comments I just have to bite the bullet and get that bloody boat home so that I can run the motor regularly and try to actually use the thing. Tis a fine boat (GoolwaCraft Sahara 530) with a good motor and one should give it justice and that's out in the briney!
Pete I take it your up in the land of the Pumpkin Scone? We were in the GC last Oct & managed a half day charter. Darn waste of good money but still fun.
Ok Guys....
I have learnt something myself today.
I have always used the CAV 296 filter. They always were designed and recommended for both petrol and diesel.
BUT
I learned today that they have changed the makeup of the filter, and sulphur in the petrol (not diesel) does apparently break down the 296 filter paper. To what extent it breaks down I dont know, but it cant be good.
The current 296 filter is now only suited to diesel.
The filter element that I would now recommended for both petrol and petrol / oil mixtures is the Ryco R2132P
Lucas, CAV, Ryco, Delphi are all good brands and would all have matching filters available as well.
Just make the seller aware of these changes, as many people who have always used the 296 still would not know.
The good thing with CAV filters is the price of the replacement element. About $7.50 and available from just about any motor associated shop in Australia.
Repco I think are a Ryco distributor.
Racor replacement elements are $60.00
Now, I only have one concern... obviously for these filters to now be suitable for petrol and petrol / oil mixes, they must have a lesser micron rating in the filter element.
I hope that it is not to the detriment of its water separating ability.
I will endeavour to get some technical information.
Thanks Guys for putting up with the bygone arguement.
I usually dont bother argueing, but this topic is important and may well be the difference between life and death one day.
Cheers
Pete
Well, this thread had made my mind up with what to do with own 'water in fuel woes" Apart from my spanking new 15hp Yammie auxillary, I'm going to get a second filter "In series"which will strain every goddam mother lovin, engine wrecking, fishing trip spoilin, drop of water out of my system.
Hell I'm glad i asked the question......Originally Posted by Skipsta
Well, this thread had made my mind up with what to do with own 'water in fuel woes" Apart from my spanking new 15hp Yammie auxillary, I'm going to get a second filter "In series"
Yes I'm with you, I'll be picking up a new filter (not a 296) and a second CAV unit this week.
Thanks again for your replies.
How much damage can water in fuel do to an engine? I have always thought not much. The engine wll sputter to a halt , but the water is not likely to get past the carby.
Its a different story if a seal breaks and cooling water gets into the engine, especilly highly corrosive saltwater. If the crank shaft becomes pitted or rusted then it must be replaced or rebuilt or the engine will be destroyed.
G'Day Sahara,
Much discussion has occured on filtering out the water once it is in the tank, but little so far on prevention strategies.
Can you tell us more on how you typically store the boat and more on the location of the fuel breather?
The reason I ask is that I used to have a lot of trouble with water making its way into the tank of my inboard ski boat. Turns out my problem was due to me placing a large tarp over the boat for storage and the tarp trapping moist air in the boat.
You mention that you store in a shed, do you have a cover on the boat as well? Does the fuel vent outside the boat or under a cover? Do you store your boat with the bungs out? Have you previously been putting it away wet?
I feel these should also be considered in the interest of prevention rather than just cure.
- Darren
Billfisher,
you're spot on, it won't get past the carbie, but
there-in lies the problem.
The water forms globules that will roll around
inside the fuel bowl, too big to pass thru the jets,
but will intermittantly block the passage of fuel
thru the jets and cause mis-firing, and stalling.
They won't cause further engine damage.
Most boats have their vent breathers outside the hull,
and as the boats underway,as fuel is being sucked out of
the tank, a vacuum is created at the breather.
A good dose of fresh methylated spirit (500ml-1ltr)
depending on the size of the tank, will disperse water
in equal weight, (that is, 1 ltr metho will disperse 1ltr water)
and will do no harm to the engine...
The lucas CAV fuel filter was designed for diesel off road equipment,
and was used in early boats that used similar diesel engines.
(CAT, CUMMINS, ETC)
Another issue with the cav filter unit is the glass water trap.
This is an issue with most insurance companies, and most
could VOID YOUR POLICY if a claim is presented to them
where the filter played a part in that claim.
It's recommended that policies are scrutinised.
Harry..
G'day Billfisher.
Too much water going through will block the carby and make the boat next to impossible to start until it is either removed by dismantling the carby, or until it evaporates out over a few days.
The Racor filters I refer to cost me an engine rebuild on a 2 year old Johnson 130.
On a trip up from Mooloolaba to Noosa Reefs, the filter let water through to the carby whilst travelling at speed. It wasnt noticeable to the ear, but by partially blocking the jets. it made the motor run lean, overheat and grab the rings in one cylinder.
Strange thing was, the overheat alarm didnt activate, even though it was functioning properly.
...and you wonder why I dont like Racor....
Harry O, I had heard the insurance thing mentioned, but have never came across an insurance company that was worried about it.
What is their big concern? Fire? Mechanical damage? Boat being disabled if fuel bowl breaks?
Would be interesting to find out exactly.
I also spoke to Racor today. The R2132P is suitable for petrol, potrol / oil mixes and diesel... it covers the three.
This is the one I will be using.
They are available from Repco (and others) Australia Wide.
Cheers
Pete
ps. I am still waiting on tech info on the micron sizes in the new vs old filters
The overheat alarms end result was and in the
Darren thanks for your comments, its incredible to me that one question could generate such interest and comment. As a start this problem first arose Easter last year when we launched the boat for the first time for some 6 - 8 weeks. During that layover period it was parked in my back yard and in the open. In my vain hope to keep the beast clean I covered it with about 5 poly tarps all held up and tied down and positioned so that water would run off and not into my pride and joy. I do not believe at any time that there was any possibility of water entering the tank system. Obviously on first launch we struggled to get it started but eventually with assistance of other boaties we idled out of the Pt Vincent Marina. About a hundred metres later the Yam changed tone, lost revs and politely died. We managed to get her restarted and away for another hundred metres before more of the same. At this point I waved the surrender flag and was promptly returned to the boat ramp (ps the tow boat asked for $50 for the privelige to which I declined to pay). The boat was taken to the Yam dealer in Ardrossan, they stripped her all down, removed fuel tank & air dried that and generally fixed her up.
From April boat sat inside large farm shed uncovered for all but 3 weeks until Xmas just gone. During the 3 weeks the fuel filler point was covered with a thick plastic as we originally thinking of this point as being suspect. On picking the boat up after xmas I took it to our holiday shack, spent 2 days preening her up ready to look good on the water, loaded all gear. On launch day we did so successfully, motored from boat ramp to shack about 1/2km, picked up the wife and then set off in sheer bliss. We motored a little short of a k when same problem arose as previous. I checked fuel bowl and there was the rotten rusty colored, water laden fuel. Towed back again and mighty upset! Towed boat 4hrs in 38 - 42 temp to Goolwa to get boat checked but dealer is unable to explain how this could possibly occur. They have even inferred human intervention and generally I don't think they handled matters all that well. To be fair they have plenty of this boat out on the waters and apparently no probs. There in lies the story, I stumble on this website and now I have caused much comment.
I hope that answers your question (in a very public servant way!!!)
Cheers
Peter A
Darren I forgot to mention: breathers on starboard side outboard well - high up. Fuel filler opposite side. Bungs always left out to allow drying and boat has always been put away in spotless condition (remember I'm a public servant!).
Boat can be seen at: www.southcoastmarine.com.au then go to Sahara.
Cheers
Peter A
Thanks Peter,
I think the topic creates significant interest as it can be a safety threat to any of us and usually occurs silently without warning.
Rusty colored water/fuel adds a new twist, that sounds more like you may have picked up bad fuel, whilst water in a boat tank is not that uncommon, rusty colored water is not something I would have thought you would get from an aluminium or stainless steel tank (others thoughts??).
Where did you pick up the fuel, please don't say from a 44 gallon drum on the farm, did you also pick up fuel for the car?
If the water wasn't brought in with the fuel, and you placed a second cover over the filler, then the only other entrance point is the breather.
Given that the breather is in the engine well, it is very difficult to ensure it isn't drawing in humid air each night from under the cover. My only suggestion would be to store it with plenty of ventilation whenever placing tarps/covers over the boat.
A timber plank from the top of the windscreen back to the top of the engine cowl is often used to create a bit of a tent when placing a cover on, this allows plenty of air to circulate through the boat and aids the drying process if storing outdoors.
Not much more I can add, but hope others may also have comment on this, as said it is of interest to a lot of us.
- Darren
Might I suggest placing a large plastic bag over the filling point and another over the breather. Make an air tight seal with a couple of strong rubber bands.
That way when the fuel expands during the heat of the day petrol vapor will inflate the plastic bag and then at night when the fuel in the tank cools and contracts it will only be sucking fuel vapor back in rather than water vapor out of the air. I have no idea if it will work and have never tried it but if I was having your problems I would be certainly giving it a go.
Hey, ummm,
I have a tricky question.
I pulled out the aluminium fuel tanks from my boat about 6 weeks ago and cleaned all the old stale premix fuel out of them and let them dry completely (cleaned them out with Parts Cleaner). I filled the small tank (50L) and gave the boat a run, and it surprised me how much difference the fresh fuel made. I have left the large tank (160L) empty, intending to fill it when I next go fishing. Due to various circumstances, I have been unable to get out.
Do you think condensation will occur in the large tank, even if it is empty? I am in FNQ and it has been humid these last few weeks. I keep the boat in storage and it is something I have not even thought to check on. I have just written this as soon as I read the thread, without checking.
Come to think of it, how the hell would I go about checking. Would I just stick a hose or something down the filler and if it came out wet, it would have to be water I guess.
Cheers,
Geoff
well i find it totally amazing that some have been using the incorrect filter even though this has been a well known thing for quite some time. just goes to show how much experience really means especially when it's used to try and take people down. for the manufacturers to wake up and start producing petrol suitable elements for these filters has only been in recent times. before that they were simply being used in a totally incorrect environment in a outboard application and what's more many obviously never realised this.
now it doesn't matter how much fuel anybody has been able to shove through a filter as if the manufacturer specifices 45 litres an hour then this is what the filter is rated for and why anybody would want to use a 45 litre/hour filter on an outboard is still beyond me, regardless of so called experience.
if one is pushing 90 litres an hour through a 45 litre an hour rated filter then something it simply outside specifications and you do this at your own risk. but then to attempt to override the manufacturers specifications is sheer inexperience, you simply don't do that.
as for glass water trap bowls this is why they make alloy/metal bowls and it really should not be all that difficult to understand why especially in a marine situation.
the question still stands "why would anybody want to use a CAV on an outboard"
price should be the least of the considerations as why use any filter that can not technically handle a outboard properly?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote