looks like boat dealers can do anything they want....I guess this would apply to boat repair and modification (trimmers etc) businesses also...definitely a case of buyer beware when purchasing anything boating.
looks like boat dealers can do anything they want....I guess this would apply to boat repair and modification (trimmers etc) businesses also...definitely a case of buyer beware when purchasing anything boating.
a solicitor's opinion is worth no more or no less than anyone elses on here...the only opinion that would matter would be that of the judge who adjudicates if it went to court.Originally Posted by PinHead
[quote author=DR link=1164277968/45#50 date=1164583192]BM acording to the responses it's YOUR FAULT
the way i read it is you don't advocate it, you are just pointing out what you have learned while in the industry, or am i missing something. So why the hell is everyone on your case.
I always get intrigued by these sorts of threads, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.
& that is all these comments are, opinions. when someone stands up & says 'i am a solicitor, & this is what is true....' then go to your solicitor & double check..
i think the worst thing a member can do on this site is to ask a legal opinion, you will get many opinions, i doubt if any are legal.. If you do want a legal opinion on something like this, ignore all the crap & do as a few have suggested & go to fair trading or a solicitor. do not be swayed or coerced into something someone on here has said, because if it all goes pear shaped' it was only an opinion'
[/quote]
while that may be true. it's holds a hell of a lot more water than just a plain old boat owners opinion..& being trained in law they could guide you in generally the right direction.
Thankyou Scott, I appreciate it.... And also DR as you seem to have grasped the oddness here.
For God's sake I have said all along that I don't agree with the situation but have unemotionally looked at the case and as has been verified in a post or two above there is no case to be waged. I SAID THAT ALL ALONG AS WELL AS SAYING I DIDN"T AGREE WITH THE SITUATION.
I have nothing to do with the situation (as you pointed out) but I am the enemy here because the opinion I proposed (now reinforced by Fair Trading etc etc) was not popular with the majority of people.
So that makes me bad or shonky Tony?..... Because I look objectively at an issue.....
Tony, you have now been told by the relevant authorities that there is no case, yet you call me shonky????? Yes the situation should not have occured but there is essentially no case. So you can with all legal conscience onsell the item knowing that it does not contravene the law. Or you can fit the brake upgrade (which I also mentioned somewhere along the line).
I tell you what people, stop taking out your agro over an issue on someone who is not part of it. Can you not see the misdirection of this? The majority of respondants now have a negative attitude towards me when 1) they don't even know me and 2) it is totally undeserved. My customers have always been well looked after and have in every case had a better deal than dealing with major boating businesses. Thats fact, but believe what you want.
I attend these boards to help answer peoples boating questions and in many cases save people a lot of money by being able to sort out issues so they don't need to take it somewhere (which potentially costs me money in the sense of a lost job). And I am in Melbourne so there is no income generating ideas in relation to helping out on Ausfish. Just a willingness to help others. Help them to slag me down so it seems...
And these silly posts about "dealers can do what they want". Come on now, thats ridiculous emotive untruths. We are dealing here with 1 BOAT out of how many boats that were sold in that year across the country?? Of course there could be many more situations like this too, I accept that. And lets not forget that one should never accept another persons word without checking things for themselves.
And finally, section 55 of the TPA is a particularly difficult section to apply in terms of burden of proof. You cannot take legislation on "face value" as the interpretation and intention of the legislation are the matters that will ultimately debated in court and how that intention/interpretation is then conveyed to and how it impacts the common man. Nothing is straight forward. By the way, in previous years in a prior field I have been in court a number of times giving/defending evidence obtained on various cases, spent many years gathering evidence on a variety of cases in strict accordance with State and Commonwealth Guidelines and numerous other pieces of legislation governing collection and handling. I also launched successful action in the civil claims court (VCAT) on a number of occasions.
I have helped 2 people in the last 12 months who purchased very dodgy boats from 2 dealers in Melbourne. I assisted both to prepare their cases to be heard in VCAT and offered to act on their behalf if they were not confident to do so themselves. Both matters settled prior to hearing (had the dealers gone to hearing they would have gone down on both cases).
I also run a boat inspection service to 1) make money and 2) help people sort through the high percentage of crap in the secondhand boat market and put them on track to a good boat with a minimum of issues.
I have a DIY boat inspections technical manual to be released in the next month or so and a DVD on the same content to begin production next year. Depending on how they go there are plans for a home servicing series of DVD's also, or small classes on home servicing.
So I find assertions that I am shonky to be highly offensive since those assertions are false and baseless. But I guess thats the way of forums sadly, unchecked sniping that goes uncontrolled and unregulated for sometimes ill informed authors.
Nicholas
Guys , screw the lawyers etc ....
How many of us where willing to buy a boat we loved that was
technically illegal in regards to towing weight.
Unless the gross overloading of the trailer with the boat actually
is proved to cause an accident . Screw it , we all do it .
I reckon half the fishos on ausfish do it without really knowing what their
boat/motor/trailer weighs on a weighbridge.
Then add all our goodies we take fishing,
Look out !!! Where going to jail....
Tell the bloke who wants to buy it that in the real world he can fit sensabrakes if HE wants to.
You'll either sell it or you won't.
But i totally agree with you lot in regards to boatdealers and packaging.
Really a weighbridge certificate should be produced for each package.
But in this case it is the past and lawyers don't fix anything.
Ta.
Thankyou Scott, I appreciate it.... And also DR as you seem to have grasped the oddness here.
For God's sake I have said all along that I don't agree with the situation but have unemotionally looked at the case and as has been verified in a post or two above there is no case to be waged. I SAID THAT ALL ALONG AS WELL AS SAYING I DIDN"T AGREE WITH THE SITUATION.
I have nothing to do with the situation (as you pointed out) but I am the enemy here because the opinion I proposed (now reinforced by Fair Trading etc etc) was not popular with the majority of people.
So that makes me bad or shonky Tony?..... Because I look objectively at an issue.....
Tony, you have now been told by the relevant authorities that there is no case, yet you call me shonky????? Yes the situation should not have occured but there is essentially no case. So you can with all legal conscience onsell the item knowing that it does not contravene the law. Or you can fit the brake upgrade (which I also mentioned somewhere along the line).
I tell you what people, stop taking out your agro over an issue on someone who is not part of it. Can you not see the misdirection of this? The majority of respondants now have a negative attitude towards me when 1) they don't even know me and 2) it is totally undeserved. My customers have always been well looked after and have in every case had a better deal than dealing with major boating businesses. Thats fact, but believe what you want.
I attend these boards to help answer peoples boating questions and in many cases save people a lot of money by being able to sort out issues so they don't need to take it somewhere (which potentially costs me money in the sense of a lost job). And I am in Melbourne so there is no income generating ideas in relation to helping out on Ausfish. Just a willingness to help others. Help them to slag me down so it seems...
And these silly posts about "dealers can do what they want". Come on now, thats ridiculous emotive untruths. We are dealing here with 1 BOAT out of how many boats that were sold in that year across the country?? Of course there could be many more situations like this too, I accept that. And lets not forget that one should never accept another persons word without checking things for themselves.
And finally, section 55 of the TPA is a particularly difficult section to apply in terms of burden of proof. You cannot take legislation on "face value" as the interpretation and intention of the legislation are the matters that will ultimately debated in court and how that intention/interpretation is then conveyed to and how it impacts the common man. Nothing is straight forward. By the way, in previous years in a prior field I have been in court a number of times giving/defending evidence obtained on various cases, spent many years gathering evidence on a variety of cases in strict accordance with State and Commonwealth Guidelines and numerous other pieces of legislation governing collection and handling. I also launched successful action in the civil claims court (VCAT) on a number of occasions.
I have helped 2 people in the last 12 months who purchased very dodgy boats from 2 dealers in Melbourne. I assisted both to prepare their cases to be heard in VCAT and offered to act on their behalf if they were not confident to do so themselves. Both matters settled prior to hearing (had the dealers gone to hearing they would have gone down on both cases).
I also run a boat inspection service to 1) make money and 2) help people sort through the high percentage of crap in the secondhand boat market and put them on track to a good boat with a minimum of issues.
I have a DIY boat inspections technical manual to be released in the next month or so and a DVD on the same content to begin production next year. Depending on how they go there are plans for a home servicing series of DVD's also, or small classes on home servicing.
So I find assertions that I am shonky to be highly offensive since those assertions are false and baseless. But I guess thats the way of forums sadly, unchecked sniping that goes uncontrolled and unregulated for sometimes ill informed authors.
Nicholas
[/quote]
The assertion that you were shonky was based on your recommendation to hide a fault from a purchaser to ensure a sale, it was not baseless.
I understand that you have nothing to do with this, but to allow someone else to buy the boat now that I am aware of the faults without telling them is shonky, would you not agree? Or should I just drain all the fuel out so it is ok when he drives it away?
What is the difference between doing that and putting something in the leg oil to mask worn bearings?
It is not an issue until something happens. If there was an accident, and someone got hurt, your insurance would be void. You would end up paying for the rest of your life.
I didn't say to do that Tony. This bloke that wants to buy it, tell him its legal without fuel but not with fuel. If he wants to buy it thats his choice and nothing to do with you.
Likewise the next person along the line tell them the same thing too, that it is close to maximum weight unloaded and may well need the brakes upgraded.
Or do the brake upgrade and raise the price to cover it, or at least cover 50% of it. How many of the same boats have you seen on a just legal trailer?
Well, I asked you in a previous post if I had misread, and you didn't answer, so I assumed I hadn't.
If you advocate telling the prospective purchaser, then I take it back, that is fair enough.
I have phoned 6 other dealers that sell this boat, and they all say they will not sell them without breakaway brakes.
Yes I agree with telling the prospective purchaser as it makes life simpler and means no agro customer waiting at the front gate the next day.
And your dealer should have told you likewise. But he didn't and thats that.
You bought it, which means someone else will also. If you fit breakaway brakes and add the cost onto your price where does that put you in relation to other used boats on the market (same boat of course)?
You bought it, which means someone else will also. This continues to come accross as a p$ss poor attitude. As long as this attitude continues and nothing else changes then this same dealer is still probably do the same thing this very day?
The buck passing needs to stop and it's no good simply saying But he didn't and thats that. he needs to never be able to do this again but while everybody is passing the buck to the next person not a dam thing has been achieved from any of this.
Regards, kerry.
I've been keeping an eye on this thread and i could'nt agree more with what your saying in
regard to dealers being pond scum, ( most dealers anyway ) taking advantage of unsuspecting
buyers and just treating them like an easy mark. But in your case i'm a little puzzled into how
this happened to you in the first place.
Being an engineer who works with figures and fine tolerances, ( guessing ), how is it you did'nt
add the figures for bmt and at a minimum then add a fair safety margin for gear/fuel/rocket
launches/canopys etc. I really would'nt have thought that would be to much to do seeing as
that your an engineer, and i find it a bit hard to believe that you were not aware of the
closeness to the 2 tonne figure and I would have thought that you would have insisted on a WB
certificate to confirm your suspicions that it was overweight .
Easy, you assume the bloke selling the package to you has done the sums for you because HE is putting the boat on a trailer for YOU. In the same way you assume the boat comes complete with bungs and in just the same as you assume the guy selling the new car to you has the correct tyres on it and the correct type of oil in the transmission and diff.
When some new things are purchased you assume a lot of things but when it comes to the boating industry apparently the safest thing to do is assume nothing....absolutley nothing at all (except assume that the dealer is gunna try and rip you off).
BM, I realise you were only trying to say what happens in the real world and I only burred up when you made the statement, and I quote,
"And for the sake of it (and more grief) business is about making money. Some people seem to think that dealers have every best interest of the customer at the forefront of their mind......
Wake up! A smart business person has his business at the forefront of his mind and generating profit. Looking after customers is a part of policy and procedure its not the core function of the business."
To me that statement is trying to say..... a business in it purely to make money and looking after customers isn't really a requirement.
Mate, a good (or smart) retail or service providing business (whether the business be selling $250,000 boats or $10kg prawns or wind chimes at the Sunday markets) will look after their customers..they make it a core function of their business....without customers there is no business.
You cannot generate profits if no bugger comes in your front door. How many marine places had your apparent attitude BM and are no longer trading.
Now look on the other hand and have a look at people in the marine industry that bend over backwards to look after the client. Fisher boats is a prime example of this. Fisher boats is fairly a small boat building company but now they send new boats all over the country side. (the last 2 are going north and one is a sister ship to one the client has already so they must be happy)
Why, because he listens to the client and has the clients best interest in mind. Funnily enough Col could quite possibily be making a $swillion. Good on him if he is I say. He deserves it
Now look at Tony. He's looking for another boat. Is he going to buy another boat of the same dealer...don't think so....so who is generating profits and having the same people coming in the front door all the time to give him more money?? Dodgy dealer or Fisher boats??
Easy, you assume the bloke selling the package to you has done the sums for you because HE is putting the boat on a trailer for YOU. In the same way you assume the boat comes complete with bungs and in just the same as you assume the guy selling the new car to you has the correct tyres on it and the correct type of oil in the transmission and diff.
When some new things are purchased you assume a lot of things but when it comes to the boating industry apparently the safest thing to do is assume nothing....absolutley nothing at all (except assume that the dealer is gunna try and rip you off).
I agree with you finga, the dealer should have done all of that, without a doubt. I'm just
surprised that Tony being an engineer was'nt able to conclude that the guy was pulling a fast
one, after all thats an engineers job to work out SWL and tolerances? I guess i would have
accepted it a bit better if it was just an average guy off the street and not a person with a
university degree in engineering who would deal with similar type issues daily ( guessing ).
Easy, you assume the bloke selling the package to you has done the sums for you because HE is putting the boat on a trailer for YOU. In the same way you assume the boat comes complete with bungs and in just the same as you assume the guy selling the new car to you has the correct tyres on it and the correct type of oil in the transmission and diff.
When some new things are purchased you assume a lot of things but when it comes to the boating industry apparently the safest thing to do is assume nothing....absolutley nothing at all (except assume that the dealer is gunna try and rip you off).
BM, I realise you were only trying to say what happens in the real world and I only burred up when you made the statement, and I quote,
"And for the sake of it (and more grief) business is about making money. Some people seem to think that dealers have every best interest of the customer at the forefront of their mind......
Wake up! A smart business person has his business at the forefront of his mind and generating profit. Looking after customers is a part of policy and procedure its not the core function of the business."
To me that statement is trying to say..... a business in it purely to make money and looking after customers isn't really a requirement.
Mate, a good (or smart) retail or service providing business (whether the business be selling $250,000 boats or $10kg prawns or wind chimes at the Sunday markets) will look after their customers..they make it a core function of their business....without customers there is no business.
You cannot generate profits if no bugger comes in your front door. How many marine places had your apparent attitude BM and are no longer trading.
Now look on the other hand and have a look at people in the marine industry that bend over backwards to look after the client. Fisher boats is a prime example of this. Fisher boats is fairly a small boat building company but now they send new boats all over the country side. (the last 2 are going north and one is a sister ship to one the client has already so they must be happy)
Why, because he listens to the client and has the clients best interest in mind. Funnily enough Col could quite possibily be making a $swillion. Good on him if he is I say. He deserves it
Now look at Tony. He's looking for another boat. Is he going to buy another boat of the same dealer...don't think so....so who is generating profits and having the same people coming in the front door all the time to give him more money?? Dodgy dealer or Fisher boats??[/quote]
the bits in red..... more than likely true..
people start business's to make money, not to give customers a bargain or a deal. money is no1 priority, i dont't know a single person that has ever set up a business with the idea of being a charity for the public, it's to make money
if not they may as well get a job working for someone else.
While there are a couple who will go out of their way,(fisher boats appear to be one) & build a solid/reputable business, most others go about their daily routine without any hiccups, occasionally one will appear & a lot will do whatever they can to avoid compensation. the lack of complaints far outweigh the complaints & while it may seem that a lot of boaties read these boards & the complaints, they are only a drop in the ocean compared to those that don't & they are probably aware of this. Any bad press takes years to have an affect on a business & by the time it does these people have probably made some big bucks & moved on to a different type of business altogether it would appear boat yards are among the worst at this. The bigger ones will probably still try & stitch you up, but, as it would appear, while they are legally correct but morally corrupt... everyone can whinge & bit*h about it all they like, as long as it is legal they will keep doing it. someone needs to have a serious problem of some sort & take it to court & test it out..i still believe there must be some sort of 'duty of care' on the boat yards..
just my 2 cents, it's all about money....
I didn't have any suspicions that it was overweight, the first I knew of it was when the dealer it is on consignment with rang me.
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