An Inconvenient truth?

[tunaman]

Pinhead. I think theres a little more fact around than just specaultion and yes, you dont need a degree, but to say the world is fine, well I dont know about that. But I dont sit here and shit my self about, but I do find it all very interesting.
Why dont you tell me in one hundred or less words of how fine the planet really is. Tell me how good things are going to be in the years to come. I think you might find it hard for somewhere to start. And like I said befour, these down sides wont happen in our life time, and live every second I will, you can count on that. But who said it will be a natrual ending for the life on earth. All it takes is one idiot to press the button, and that could be sooner than you think.

Madmix. What Iam trying to say is, that the people of the world will and are breeding with all races, and in time we will be all one. And as for
making the worlds population smaller, slow down on breeding, let the death rate over ride the birth rate.



signed tunaman

[PinHead]

Tuna..it is still all specualtion..all they can do is guess what has happened in the past and guess what may happen in the future. As for 100 hundred words or less..simple..starting point..NOW..life is great...see, all over in 3 words

Won't it be great when we will all be one..we will then be rid of that most vile and disguating trait called racism.

[tunaman]

lol I really enjoyed your detailed discription of the Question but yeah,
life is good, and wouldnt be dead for a millions dollars, but back to the
point, the worlds climate has changed in a big way, and allready water and food production in Australia has started to be affected, and in other
parts of the world. If population grows, and the climate gets hotter and dryer, it would be fair to say,that things are not going to be so bright for the years to come. Thats not a prodiction,as such, thats a fact.
The good times from the past, which feeds our minds with false hopes,
can only be discribed as small mindedness or nonvisionary.
Pinhead, its not hard to see that things are not balanced in the world today, and yes there is a lot of guesswork going on, but no one can see the future, but an educated guess will do me fine. Its better than thinking that everythings going to be allright, when we dam well know its not. We need to wined things back a bit, coz we cant keep growing like we are, and in the nexted hundred years or so, I think the writings
just started on the walls of change.



signed tunaman

[PinHead]

It is amazing ..all the doomsayers about global warming. All these scientists sprouting that man is causing whatever damage there may be. Who is to say that this is not a cyclical feature of the planet..Australia used to be mainly rainforest..now the driest continent..who is to say that the cycle is just continuing unabated and any effects man has are totally negligible.

The climate is only getting hotter and drier here (at the present time)..SE Asia has experienced increased monsoon activities over the past decades...the world keeps on turning and keeps on evolving...yet we seem to think we are resonsible for everything..perhaps not.

I will reirterate..scientists are only specualting..they may say that temps have risen about 0.5C over the past century...but they have no idea what has actuallu caused it..it is ALL speculation and nothing more.

Lately all the talk has been about global warming..what about the hole in the ozone layer..remember that..in the 80's it was the item that would destroy us..well..2005 was the worst year for the hole over Antarctica..and guess what..we are still here..amazing huh.

As for your statement of "fact"..people have survived i hotter and drier climates than ours..and food production on this planet can feed everyone..effortlessly...as long as the political nitwits allowed it to happen.

I do have to ask you one question..you say the world's climate has changed in a big way..from when..last year? last century? 1 million years ago...or more..what is the criteria you base this on to be so sure it is fact. Or is there a time i nthe cyclical changes of the planet when the climate was the same as it is now ? I don't know that answe and I do not think anyone would..hence all that everyone is saying now is mere theories..nothing proven and substantiated.

[seatime]

pinhead

you know why they harp on about a 0.5 degree temp rise in the last century, because that's how long they have been collating climate data.
Feed 100yrs of data into modelling software and the sky is falling in.

Otherwise they will rely on things like ice core samples for a prognosis.

The whole debate could be viewed as an extended weather forecast similar to what we read on the BOM site. And we know what often happens with the local weather forecasts

[madmix]

Why should global warming result in food and water
shortages.
Given predictions of rising sea levels and rising temperatures,
it stands to reason that the evaporation from a larger expanse
of water will also increase, therefore leading to an increased
rate of precipitation.
So we have increased precipitation and increased temperature
levels, which should result in increased levels of food production
due to more favourable and widespread growing conditions.

Better growing conditions, equals a significant increase in the
growth rate and expanse of vegetation, therefore leading
to a substantial increase in photosynthesis.

Gee I should be a scientist.


cheers Mick

[seatime]

'They' say rising sea levels and warmer waters will kill all the cold water species.

On the flip side "thermal expansion" which is what it's actually called may be a benefit to ocean fisheries.
As a consequence of thermal expansion, it is speculated that colder currents will be able to move out of sub-arctic regions and deliver into temperate zones. This will have a major effect on food sources for fisheries in those areas.
Who knows anyway, it's all speculative, there aren't any 'facts' because it hasn't happened yet.
I'm content to accept what this rock has to offer, and deal with whatever it throws our way.

regards
Steve.

[tunaman]

Interesting. So the world is indistructable! Good, so we can carry on like we are and there,s nothing to worry about. Sorry I dont share the same views exactly. Lets put it this way. The world you enjoy and take for granted now, is going to change. True its not the end of our way of life,
but we will have to put up with some changes, and true, there are the pro and cons were some countries will benifit but some will lose.
What do we do with the ones that need help and their the ones that are the primray food producers. then what! True, its all speculation, but the main point Iam trying to make is, population size is going to bring us down if something goes horribly wrong, and I dont think the worlds leeders are taking into account that this might be possiable.

Madmix. If what you say is true, everything will be washed away.
Pinhead. No I cant ansewer that Question.

gelic. Please explain!



Sorry, I had more to post but pressed post by accident.


signed tunaman

[poncho]

How many people who have contributed to this post have actually seen the movie? I have and defiantly recommend it. As with everything i hear or see about such issues it is best to be "taken it with a grain of salt", but none the less it is worth seeing/considering both sides of the argument before rubbishing or easily dismissing certain views. I believe the movie does address a lot of common misconceptions about global warming that have been expressed in some of the above posts. Am i convinced that global warming is taking place? Well it probably is but if it will have drastic consequences... I'm not sure... I'm not convinced it will.

That's my 2 cents

Cheers Chris

[tunaman]

Please define. Witch are the ones that have the misconceptions, and its not an argument, its a frendly debate. I find all of this very interesting,
and its good to see that people have so much care for the world today.
and if the world is so well, why is everyone so conserned?
And no I havent seen the movie myself, but I,ll make a point of seeing it as soon as posable.



signed tunaman

[madmix]

Hi Tunaman,

Everything washed away, that sounds familiar.
but I thought next time it was fire.

Then again, returneth to dust, could be drought


bloody hell, I 've caught tunaman disease and accidently
hit post too.

[poncho]

"Why should global warming result in food and water
shortages.
Given predictions of rising sea levels and rising temperatures,
it stands to reason that the evaporation from a larger expanse
of water will also increase, therefore leading to an increased
rate of precipitation.
So we have increased precipitation and increased temperature
levels, which should result in increased levels of food production
due to more favourable and widespread growing conditions.

Better growing conditions, equals a significant increase in the
growth rate and expanse of vegetation, therefore leading
to a substantial increase in photosynthesis. "

"It is amazing ..all the doomsayers about global warming. All these scientists sprouting that man is causing whatever damage there may be. Who is to say that this is not a cyclical feature of the planet..Australia used to be mainly rainforest..now the driest continent..who is to say that the cycle is just continuing unabated and any effects man has are totally negligible. "

"the world is fine tunaman...even if it is heading for another ice age or any other such natural occurrence, none of us can do anything about it. All these scientists can do is specualte.."

There are just a few quotes from the above posts that i believe are misconceptions, Your right, argument was the wrong word to use i did mean debate. I too find it interesting and it is good to see so many people taking an interest. As I said before even after seeing the movie am not all convinced about dooms day predictions on same token i think it is naive to think the human race doesn't have any impact on the earth or its climate. There was a quote from the movie a few pages back something like it is "hard for a man to understand something when his lively hood depends on him not understanding." I think this raises a good point. I believe not only if ones 'lively hood depends on them not understand' but also ones way of life depends on them not understanding. How many of those who have posted find it hard to understand because if what they say is true about global warming the implications would conflict with their lifestyle. Would you be willing to give up your way of life (cars, boats, etc) if you were given 100% undeniable evidence that you cause global warming. I'm definitely no greeny and i enjoy fishing/boating and driving a car. I'm not even sure i would give those things up if given 100% undeniable evidence.

Cheers Chris

[tunaman]

Bullshit. Are you people living under a rock! Doomsday! Have any of you
really read what I have said?
Tunaman disease, you have a disease allright, and its nothing to do with me
Is just a well talked about topic witch no ones has the true ansewer for!
So dont get all wounded blokes on me.


And in the end, who gives a shit, I think thats what everyone thinks.



signed tunaman

[madmix]

Hi bayfisher,

Re my apparent misconception!!!!
If we are producing green house gasses that are supposedly
causing global warming, then please explain what happens
in a green house??
To my knowledge increased humidity, increased temperature
and increased growth rates.

Tunaman, debates friendly or not are always a healthy exercise
for the mind.

ps: I was going to send you five dollars but had allready
sealed the envelope!!!! sound familiar

cheers Mick

[Jim_Tait]

Tunaman,

full power to your arm for continuing to discuss the topic in the face of ignoramuses who choose not to confront the reality that is now as well and truly apparent as the nose on their face. As Al Gore has referred to it (climate change) it is an inconvenient truth - because it confronts our current socio - economic paradigm with it's unsustainability. Its not rocket science any cow cocky knows there are only so many head you can put in the bottom paddock before your outstrip its productive capacity and lead to natural resource degradation - its called carrying capacity - most five year olds understand it well enough but modern society - particularly adherents to the growth based economy prefer to believe in the cultural delusion of 'evermoreism' - that is human welfare is dependent on ever-increasing consumption of resources and energy something we know to be a lie (& unsustainable).

Who gives a shit? I do, I have two young kids and the impacts of climate change will definitely be increasingly felt in their lifetimes - we are already seeing the beginning of it.

The 0.7 degrees increase in global temperature rise in the last 100 years is only the beginning - it is accelerating, 0.5 of the increase has occurred post 1950's, and their is an increasing consensus between climatologists and ecologists that 2-3 degrees rise is as much as we could possibly risk before we get run away carbon dynamics and positive feedback mechanisms operating that will take our climate to a place where the survivability of human society is less than assured. People need to realise that the world's atmosphere is a big thing (but not that big that it can absorb impacts forever - the entire biosphere - the bit that contains life - is as thick as condensation on a marble) and that changes to it requires big inputs and set up a lot of inertia - its a big ship to turn around!!

I am a scientist (ecologist) who has had cause to review the scientific literature on climate change as part of my work and it has been personally disturbing for me to see where the science has got to in terms of reaching consensus on the severity of the unfolding impacts and its linkage to human activity - versus the six o'clock news where the world's superpowers are still more interested in securing oil reserves in the middle east - when climate wise we can't even afford to burn the oil we have!!

We can avert global catastrophe associated with climate change and the other ecological crisis we face but it will require nothing short of cultural reform. As a society we need to accept that ecosystems singularly or in their entirety as the global life support system have thresholds as to how much they can be trashed/exploited before ecological values and ecosystem services are lost - we need to get our culture and economy operating within those constraints instead of the blind adherence to the economic mythology of sustained growth forever - its not rocket science, quite simple really - as David Suzuki once said 'growth for the sake of growth is the philosophy of cancer!"

If you look (via aerial photos or satellite imagery) at the patterns that human development make on the natural energetic signatures of ecosystems (diverse mosaics comprised of ’arterial’ river networks, forests and kidney ‘wetlands’ that evoke Gaian sympathies) it is apparent that the growth – cancer analogy goes beyond the metaphoric. The massive undifferentiated cellular pattern of human settlement or agriculture represents a blight on the more complex landscape tissues of nature which draws energetically from the surrounding living system (nutrients and materials) and excretes by-products downstream (wastes, toxins, sediment & nutrient loads) that cause system dysfunction – the cancer analogy is actually quite accurate – and we have the ability to fix this by modelling our society and development more on nature where someone’s shit is someone else’s nutrient and connected cyclical systems deliver homeostasis (dynamic equilibrium) as opposed to growth.

Unfortunately the powers that be (the privileged classes and top order capitalists) benefit from the status quo (it keeps the wheels of industry turning – just look at how the military industry complex has benefited from the current wars in the middle east) and given the media monopolisation in this country (and globally) we don't get to hear too many alternative views on the matter or have too many debates about how the economy should operate or who it should serve.

We all have come to equate quality of life with our individual level of material and energy consumption - when in fact there are heaps of cultural pursuits that we could pursue to give ourselves a high quality of life without costing the earth – things like (1) nature base recreation (that’s where fishing comes in), (2) spirituality (wherever you find it –besides the almighty $ sign) and (3) the arts (no not Van Goughs on the wall – but creative endeavours that bind community and give them a positive sense of identity & Hope!!).

Viva the revolution - Jim