Qld Rec fisher changes in the air

[billfisher]

The photo app method would be almost identical to the commercial catch records. Only it would all be done via your phone and taking a photo on a brag mat or similar could estimate the size of each fish harvested. When stock assessments are done there are no huge assumptions made on take for commercial. But a huge amount of assumptions on take take for recs.

Like I said that relies on the honesty of anglers. Also it is far easier to keep tabs on 1,000 or so pros than a million or so rec anglers. Some larger pro vessels have cameras installed so everything they do is recorded. Audits are done to check the accuracy of reporting. Trigger points are enacted if non-compliance reaches a certain level. I would be a huge job (expensive) to collate all that data from the app and it may not be any more accurate than surveys. Money might be better spent on more regular and more rigorous surveys.

[Lovey80]

Like I said that relies on the honesty of anglers. Also it is far easier to keep tabs on 1,000 or so pros than a million or so rec anglers. Some larger pro vessels have cameras installed so everything they do is recorded. Audits are done to check the accuracy of reporting. Trigger points are enacted if non-compliance reaches a certain level. I would be a huge job (expensive) to collate all that data from the app and it may not be any more accurate than surveys. Money might be better spent on more regular and more rigorous surveys.

There are plenty of software systems out there that would automatically collate that data and could do it on a daily basis. It could do it on a minute by minute basis provided the mobile phone was in range at the time they hit the 'enter' button on every fish they took a photo of. The same app could upload all of a trip's data once it reaches 4G reception for those fishing far offshore. Start it with a species of concern, say snapper, then get the testing done to iron out any kinks. Later start to add all of the other species that are under heavy concern. Policing is no different to now. Get caught with fish on board but not uploaded into the app and you cop a fine. Same thing with commercial fishermen now with their logbooks.

I work with a guy that built a software system far more complex than this in less than 2 months. If you start this on a single species and add more down the track it could be up and running in less than 3 months.

[Noelm]

Getting the software/app running would be simple (as mentioned) the issue is and always will be compliance, there’s just not enough Fisheries guys to police it, and most rec fishers are simply too paranoid to supply catch data.

[docaster]

I'm not intending to "flame somebody ". Haven't heard that term.
But I'm sick of losing our God given freedoms, and having to look over one's shoulder increasingly.
Maybe i have too much faith in most people doing the right thing, and don't need to be treated as a criminal.
Food for thought people, go watch the movie 1984.

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[Lovey80]

I’m usually in the same boat as you Docaster. But I’m coming at this from a different angle. We are having our freedoms eroded in his space on a regular basis, based on the back of complete bumpkin data. Huge assumptions are being made about how much Recs take and then extrapolated using dubious methods. I think on the whole, the vast majority of people want to do the right thing. If they’re sensitised well enough with media campaigns as to the end game of this I think over time the Rec catch data would become robust. Right now the freedoms are being taken away on the back of mathematics models not solid data.

look back at the earlier RRFF review on Snapper. They used the same model across all three sectors (commercial/charter/recreational). When the models from Recs and commercial data showed the stock was stable, they simply labeled the results as “hyper-stable” meaning the data was showing stability but the stock was really in decline, then changed the model they used to calculate the recreational take. Bang the new maths model showed the stock was in decline. If they had a comprehensive full take from “the biggest sector” they couldn’t make all these assumptions on the recreational take. They’d have to use hard data like they do for commercials.

it’s then and only then that we can then argue the assumptions made in the models they use. It’s then that we can ask for rock solid indicators of stock increases based on imperial evidence and not assumptions. Assumptions BTW that always use the “precautionary principle”.

If built well. The app could be used as a personal fishing log to look back on over time. So while the basic data that is sent to the server may only require a few data points like date+length of each fish+region (say Gold Coast+Moreton bay inshore+Brisbane offshore+Sunshine Coast+Fraser coast+Fraser coast north). The app could be build in a way where the more specific data could be retained in a personal fishing log book if the user wanted it to. Things like time off day, tide, moon, depth, barometric pressures etc etc

[Lucky_Phill]

phil you and I had a bunch of back and forth during the RRFF review and the Rec fishing body you helped set up. What would you rather? Take a photo of each fish you want to take home from a free app on a brag mat. Or simply cop massive assumptions from Fisheries that Recs take 75% of the snapper based off massive extrapolations from boat ramp surveys and assumptions that snapper catches are increasing inline with boat registrations?

Honest question. Because it’s not until there is solid Rec data that we can even begin to question the science. Until we can question the assumptions made by so called scientists.

Oh course I want real data. Brag mats are NOT good enough for legal measuring of fish.

No matter if we get app reporting, phone survey's, boat ramp surveys, the sticking point is the virgin bio-mass.

Ya'll know my feelings on this............ Artificial reefs, Wild Stocking and Green Zone rotation are a must, if we / fisheries are to make any headway into the sustainably of any fishery.

All I am saying is that Fisheries management will continue to look at ways to keep their jobs but will never adopt a method of management that will work in improving the fishery, simply because they are hamstrung by politics.

LP

[Lovey80]

Getting the software/app running would be simple (as mentioned) the issue is and always will be compliance, there’s just not enough Fisheries guys to police it, and most rec fishers are simply too paranoid to supply catch data.

There’s good reason for that. Nothing good comes right now from supplying catch data. I certainly won’t supply it myself right now because I know how it is used. That said if the catch data is comprehensive like mentioned above I’m all for it.

[NAGG]

I'm not intending to "flame somebody ". Haven't heard that term.
But I'm sick of losing our God given freedoms, and having to look over one's shoulder increasingly.
Maybe i have too much faith in most people doing the right thing, and don't need to be treated as a criminal.
Food for thought people, go watch the movie 1984.

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The reason why we are losing our god given freedoms is because as human we ae very good at using & abusing what we have . If there was no oversight / regulations ...... we wouldn't have any fish to catch . We are greedy gluttons taking everything that we can ........ For me it's easy to understand why we are losing these "god given freedoms" .

Chris

[Volvo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hka...ndex=35&t=135s

Just one lot who arent Rec Fishos. One can guess at the numbers.

[Noelm]

There’s good reason for that. Nothing good comes right now from supplying catch data. I certainly won’t supply it myself right now because I know how it is used. That said if the catch data is comprehensive like mentioned above I’m all for it.

I don’t quite grasp why data now is different to “comprehensive” data later. That said, I know first hand how data can be used, been on all sides of that many times, it can be manipulated to suit a purpose.

[Lovey80]

Oh course I want real data. Brag mats are NOT good enough for legal measuring of fish.

No matter if we get app reporting, phone survey's, boat ramp surveys, the sticking point is the virgin bio-mass.

Ya'll know my feelings on this............ Artificial reefs, Wild Stocking and Green Zone rotation are a must, if we / fisheries are to make any headway into the sustainably of any fishery.

All I am saying is that Fisheries management will continue to look at ways to keep their jobs but will never adopt a method of management that will work in improving the fishery, simply because they are hamstrung by politics.

LP

the brag mat comment was purely as a reference guide for the app to estimate the length of each fish recorded so that standard length v weight calculations could be done to estimate the total take. It would also give solid data on the length/age/size of he average fish as the last set of restrictions weren’t because of sustainability or fear of a collapse but because the stock was “growth overfished”. Ie the stock average size was too small.

This app could be built cheap cheap. Done correctly it could be used as a much faster way for commercial and charter fishos to record their catches as well.

[Lovey80]

The reason why we are losing our god given freedoms is because as human we ae very good at using & abusing what we have . If there was no oversight / regulations ...... we wouldn't have any fish to catch . We are greedy gluttons taking everything that we can ........ For me it's easy to understand why we are losing these "god given freedoms" .

Chris

I don’t think anyone has an issue with basic regulations on fishing provided they are informed and done in the right spirt. Everyone now days understands the need for fisheries management and I’d argue those that continue to do the wrong thing are in a rare minority. In spite our history of bush rangers and rebels Australians are a super compliant population and those that abide by the rules get pretty angry when the see others flaunting them.

That said, I think your line of thinking is ingrained within fisheries management culture. While it’s never said in a stock assessment or similar paper, the conclusions/assumptions made sometimes point to that being a unwritten factor. I think this is the wrong approach from a policy standpoint and we should all want the science behind such decisions to be robust as possible. Right now we are far from that.

[Lovey80]

I don’t quite grasp why data now is different to “comprehensive” data later. That said, I know first hand how data can be used, been on all sides of that many times, it can be manipulated to suit a purpose.

because right now the data for (let me stick to snapper for the sake of argument) uses mathematical models to come up with how much snapper we take. A few boat ramp surveys get extrapolated to form the entire catch for say 2012, they make assumptions in how they extrapolate that data, and tell us Recs are taking 75% of the snapper. Then in 2018 when they want to do another stock assessment they take the 2012 numbers and add a % based off the increase in boat registrations and assume the Rec take has gone up by that amount.

If everyone was required to use an app where it takes under a minute to set your app up for a days fishing as you’re heading out, and then 15 seconds on your phone as you boat a fish you intend to put in the esky to record it as taken from the biomass. Then when they do the stock assessment they don’t have to make assumptions on the Rec take. They don’t have to extrapolate based off a sample of boat ramp surveys. The total catch will be a known quantity the same as commercial and charter data. We will know exactly what the take is.

There’s also no reason why there can’t be transparency with the raw data. Sure you take individual identifiers away from the data base. But anyone doing a review of a stock assessment would have to have access to the data. When reviews happen, all stake holders would have to get access to that data. When/if super weird data points show up in the raw data it can be questioned.

[Volvo]

At days end it would be far cheaper for Rec Fishos to buy their Fish without All the Kakka that goes with it and one would propably end up with more Fish at hand too.
Know thats not what its all about but neither is all the Bullshyte either.

[TheRealPoMo]

At days end it would be far cheaper for Rec Fishos to buy their Fish without All the Kakka that goes with it and one would propably end up with more Fish at hand too.
Know thats not what its all about but neither is all the Bullshyte either.

Amen to that for me.
Not about a fish supper though (which is fortunate as I'd starve if it was).
More about being out there...like one kills so one may hunt, not hunts so one may kill.
Sorry, probably really off the topic.

I prefer the "Brave New World" model to the 1984 one, but either way, we are going to be more regulated, not less.

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