Trim tabs or auto pilot?

[Dignity]

Agree with Noel and Ranmar here...I had my Supervee for 12 months before installing trim tabs..even moving eskies and crew around the boat to try and ensure even weight distribution works only a fraction of how good trim tabs work particularly in this situation where a deep vee boat will lean into the wind and if you are ploughing through a quartering sea it will get old real quick if you are slapping into chop or swell ...they turn a nightmare of a trip into a an absolute breeze...





Some good advice there......The first job my missus had when moving permanantly to Mission Beach FNQ 25 yrs back was on the dive boat Quickcat guiding scuba divers o the reef with a local young fella that grew up on a sailboat and had spent his life on the sea as a diver and fisherman...

He was skippering his Pro fishing boat 1 Km off Bowen when he was T-boned by a 110 foot Tug...He died..tragically surviving the inital impact and capsize, but drowned while trying to rescue his crewmate trapped under/inside the hull..Inquest found both vessels on autopilot in perfect conditions but with NO lookout on either boat..

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...df50b4b90b75d4

Yep, sitting anchored off Caloundra one night and a trawler on auto pilot while the crew were stowing their gear was heading directly towards us. We drove off and just managed to lift the pick in the process, we yelled out to them, not a soul on board bothered to answer us. I hate to think what the outcome would have been if we were sleeping.

I need trim tabs as all my crew are twice the weight or so it seems of me, I would like auto pilot but going through all my wiring at the moment and wondering where I would put it although the new yammies can have it in the motor.

[ranmar850]

Consider the route first - not just the desktop theory. That's an ultra-busy stretch of water you're referring to with everything from scores of sailing dinghies and larger mono sail boats racing around the bayside islands; to a squillion power boats heading down to Peel Island or up to Tangas to dodge. You're then into a major shipping channel where container ships turn from the island into the Brisbane River and further up again, you've got the Redcliffe - Moreton Island east west, boat traffic. And you're thinking auto-pilot over trim tabs? You've got constantly shifting sand banks to navigate, you've got various shifting channels and constantly-changing wind-on water - the belting south-easters through the gap between Straddie and Moreton, exposure to the strong summer northerlies and the big southerly busters and the winter westerlies. Do yourself a favour and go trim tabs first and avoid the "flick on" "flick off" auto pilot piano playing. And that's before a gazillion crab pots floats and ropes throughout the entire journey and people trolling and casting for macks. And what about the jetski tour traffic and the kids in their high powered dinghies? Let's not forget the paraflying craft either carving their big figure eights or the turtles and very occasionally, a whale calf that slid down the wrong side of Moreton (inside). Brother, you need to be at the helm and on the ball at all times. Now if you were talking about doing the Gladstone eastern run to the reefs for 80km - 120km each way or across Hervey Bay up to Breaksea Spit as the most common destinations, then perhaps a different argument. But for that Moreton Bay route with the short, sharp chop across shallow water with the boat trying (to some degree) to lean into cross winds, trim tabs every time as the first choice. It's safer and more comfortable.

I take strong exception to your characterisation of auto pilot use as "flick-on flick-off piano playing" You sound typical of someone who has maybe done a fair amount of recreational boating over the years, and has gotten to the stage of thinking they know it all. And has never used an auto pilot. I spent 26 years, continuous, behind the wheels of various fast planing hull commercial fishing boats. Typically leaving long before first light, a long way to travel. In all sorts of conditions. Then a long return trip. Yes, I have seen MISUSE of auto pilots result in death by collision. A number of times. Leaving the wheel with no-one in command at speed is negligence, pure and simple. Someone must always be on look out, first rule of boats, with or without pilot. I insist on having someone behind the wheel at all times even at trolling speed with no-one else about. The person on the wheel has to leave for whatever reason, the next closest person moves behind the wheel. Thems the rules.In fact, you can keep a better lookout on pilot, as you are not glued to the bloody compass. No problems with disorientation in the dark, as well. Fatigue is the killer on long runs, autopilot use reduces fatigue considerably.
You are basing everything on a specific run where it may not need autopilot. I would suggest that it is you who is indulging in desktop theory--I, on the other hand, am talking about a very wide range of scenarios.

[Flex]

Surely it depends what boat you have and how fast it can go?

There is now way you can not have tabs on a high speed high powered boat. So its 100% dependent on your boats performance ability and HP/weight ratio
what boat do you have? whats the HP and how fast do you go?

If you have a stock planing hull that cruises at 22-26knots then auto pilot of fine.

If you have a high HP boat and have the ability to cruise at mid to high 30kn mark then you will need tabs. There is no way id be on autopilot running a boat through moreton chop at 34 knots.Prop torque alone will dictate you need it, plus you can fine tune your performance to run alot faster in the slop with tabs.
But, if you happy to lope along at 22knots everywhere then auto pilot of fine.
As i said, its 100% dependent on what boat you have?
Imagine if you had a 6.8m camcraft with twin 300 mercs capable of 120km/h?. autopilot or tabs?


Travelling to moreton island isnt a long trip so its a waist of time getting auto pilot IMO unless you're in a slow trawler.
its what 25-40km run?
AP is awesome if your doing 120km runs to the reef at moderate speeds and you're not in a rush

[Noelm]

Flex and Ranmar pretty much sum it up, there is no real yes/no answer, lots of variables. Like all "gizmos" it would be "nice" but necessary? NO, if I had to choose, as the original question was, then for me, it would be trim tabs.......depending on my boat.

[SUPERDAFF]

Ooohhh ahhh - Sensitive new age woke type? Suggest you re-read my comments Mr Ranmar. I was referring to a specific route - the one described by the person posing the question. Know it all? Never claimed that, but perhaps racking up tens of thousands of hours on the water in a very happy and continuing career, does perhaps provide some insights. Just my opinion? Not really. My wife also is a professional mariner who holds a Master IV with an MED 3 - she agrees.
And in terms of auto pilot, I love it. Came back to Ausfish after a long time away. Apparently, I have made the mistake - in your eyes - of thinking when someone asks for opinions, then it might be helpful to contribute one. Clearly, you "take strong exception" to that concept. I certainly have welcomed all the advice on boating-related matters that has been given to me over the years. Happy days.

[Noelm]

OH, this has turned out nice.......seems some things never change!

[seastrength]

Ooohhh ahhh - Sensitive new age woke type? Suggest you re-read my comments Mr Ranmar. I was referring to a specific route - the one described by the person posing the question. Know it all? Never claimed that, but perhaps racking up tens of thousands of hours on the water in a very happy and continuing career, does perhaps provide some insights. Just my opinion? Not really. My wife also is a professional mariner who holds a Master IV with an MED 3 - she agrees.
And in terms of auto pilot, I love it. Came back to Ausfish after a long time away. Apparently, I have made the mistake - in your eyes - of thinking when someone asks for opinions, then it might be helpful to contribute one. Clearly, you "take strong exception" to that concept. I certainly have welcomed all the advice on boating-related matters that has been given to me over the years. Happy days.

I think both authors have made some very valid points here and should be considered when one is deciding on the priority of trim tabs or autopilot. I for one have both systems on board and find them particularly helpful in certain situations, for example, trim tabs when powering through a beam on sea or wind, and autopilot for those long returns from an offshore Moreton island trip when I want to arrive at my exact turning point for the SPB crossing. I can relate to Superdaff's comment about some recreational boaters in their 28 foot cruisers using autopilot as a "flick on flick off piano playing" showpiece for non-boaters. I was nearly cleaned up by a skipper lounging on the aft deck with his girlfriend while the cruiser rounded the east cardinal mark off Mud island recently, clearly on autopilot heading north with only2-3 metres between the mark and forcing me heading south to take evasive action and pass on the wrong side of the mark. I can also recall another cruiser running aground on the southern rock wall entrance to Brisbane river having drinks and canapes below deck while the boat was on autopilot and inadvertently forgetting to include a vital entrance mark on the prepared return route. More fool him I say. However, Ranmar is quite correct when he describes the correct use of autopilot for those long hauls across the sea. I find autopilot very helpful as I often fish alone in the early morning hours and I can easily troll three lines and manage any catches on a planned route without the additional worry of helm control. So in summary, both are essential items of kit for me and are often used regularly together for my style of fishing. SS

[NAGG]

I think both authors have made some very valid points here and should be considered when one is deciding on the priority of trim tabs or autopilot. I for one have both systems on board and find them particularly helpful in certain situations, for example, trim tabs when powering through a beam on sea or wind, and autopilot for those long returns from an offshore Moreton island trip when I want to arrive at my exact turning point for the SPB crossing. I can relate to Superdaff's comment about some recreational boaters in their 28 foot cruisers using autopilot as a "flick on flick off piano playing" showpiece for non-boaters. I was nearly cleaned up by a skipper lounging on the aft deck with his girlfriend while the cruiser rounded the east cardinal mark off Mud island recently, clearly on autopilot heading north with only2-3 metres between the mark and forcing me heading south to take evasive action and pass on the wrong side of the mark. I can also recall another cruiser running aground on the southern rock wall entrance to Brisbane river having drinks and canapes below deck while the boat was on autopilot and inadvertently forgetting to include a vital entrance mark on the prepared return route. More fool him I say. However, Ranmar is quite correct when he describes the correct use of autopilot for those long hauls across the sea. I find autopilot very helpful as I often fish alone in the early morning hours and I can easily troll three lines and manage any catches on a planned route without the additional worry of helm control. So in summary, both are essential items of kit for me and are often used regularly together for my style of fishing. SS

Out of curiosity - what is the law with regards t leaving the helm to go & tend to other things ? ( No one is in control of the boat )

Chris

[Volvo]

Now thats an interesting point.

[ranmar850]

Can't quote the exact wording, but it is about keeping a watch. Someone must always be in control--which means that if you are on autopilot, you must still keep watch. It isn't just about a having a boat steer a preset course. Hell, when we are trolling offshore at 6 or 7 knots for billfish offshore from Exmouth in the winter months, we have exactly the same rules as travelling at twenty knots. If the person behind the wheel has to leave for ANY reason, the person in the passenger seat moves straight over with verbal confirmation. And the reason is humpbacks. We fish on the humpback highway, where the continental shelf comes within a few miles of the back of the reef, and regardless of how clear the ocean might seem, suddenly you have one surface right under your bow. They can travel a long way between breaths.

There have been cases I can recall locally, over here, when vessels on autopilot struck other vessels with fatality involved. First one was a crayboat retuning to port, which struck a small recreational vessel. it was still early morning, and he claimed bad visiblity as he was heading into the sun with salt on the windows. Debate as to whether or not anyone was on watch.The vessels' master went to gaol.

The other was one out of here. 65 footer heading out in the early morning on the long haul to Big Bank, 18 knot cruise. Conditions were pretty good, unusual for January. He hit a small wooden boat anchored 25 miles out, just forward of amidships, and killed the crewman sleeping in the bunk. The skipper of the smaller boat ( I know him), survived. The smaller boat was a wetliner. before quotas there were a few of these little old bondwood ex-crayboats doing this, living on the smell of an oily rag. They would fish all afternoon, then into the night always at anchor. Then if they were worried about having enough battery to start in the morning, turn off all their lights. I very nearly hit one out there myself, same circumstances, only just spotted a recurring flicker amongst the clutter on the radar which gave me a heads-up. The Court of Enquiry found contributory negligence against the skipper of the smaller vessel. I beleive there was a heavy fine for the master of the larger vessel, no gaol time.

I was setting pots out that way the following year, and spotted a big length of unlaid rope floating. Pulled up an anchor attached, then a horrible cold feeling hit me as I realised this was probably the accident site. Confirmed when I gave the anchor back to the survivor.

[ranmar850]

Ooohhh ahhh - Sensitive new age woke type? Suggest you re-read my comments Mr Ranmar. I was referring to a specific route - the one described by the person posing the question. Know it all? Never claimed that, but perhaps racking up tens of thousands of hours on the water in a very happy and continuing career, does perhaps provide some insights. Just my opinion? Not really. My wife also is a professional mariner who holds a Master IV with an MED 3 - she agrees.
And in terms of auto pilot, I love it. Came back to Ausfish after a long time away. Apparently, I have made the mistake - in your eyes - of thinking when someone asks for opinions, then it might be helpful to contribute one. Clearly, you "take strong exception" to that concept. I certainly have welcomed all the advice on boating-related matters that has been given to me over the years. Happy days.

Sensitive new ago type? at 70 yo? OK, Boomer. I took exception to your provocative wording--deliberatively provocative, or just careless? Maybe you could use less sarcastic terminology when offering "advice" . Fine, you can have your opinions as auto pilot use being " piano key playing". And if you knew anything about me on this forum--you said you have been away a long time--you would realise I do value it as a place to give and recieve advice. I like to help when I can, I don't see the forum as a place to exhibit keyboard warrior bulls**t.
Yes, I did see that you were giving advice on a specific route. A very specific route. One which most of us will never travel. It sounds like trim tabs may be useful, with some hulls, on that specific route. And I accept that. So maybe when you give "advice", try to give qualifiers, and realise that YMMV.
I am a Master class IV(FV), with an MED 2. I do have a lot of real sea time, not just recco hours.

[Sea Unit]

Thank-you all for your absolutely fantastic input. This site really can provide a healthy discussion drawing on many, many years of experience. It would be a damn shame to see this thread follow the path of so many before it and devolve in to an argument.

We've opted to go with the auto-pilot first (with the tabs to come end of year). Here's why:

Yes, the majority of our local runs are Manly to outside the Cape and yeah, it can get busy along this route however not quite as busy as one might think (perhaps due to the time of day we tend to run out and back). I regard myself as a very attentive, capable and cautious captain. I would never dream of leaving the helm whilst underway for all the reasons listed above (and more). However, having a computer keep me on my path to the next waypoint even for a stretch of 20 - 40km or so would help alleviate the end of day mental strain of constant course correcting. However, local runs aside, the missus and I tend to trailer our boat more than the majority would to fish up north. We run out of Gladstone & Yeppoon at least a handful of times per year doing the longer runs out to the Bunker Group and back (sometimes several times in a trip when we choose to camp at the Keppels). And now that we have started pushing out of 1770 there are bound to be even more long, straight runs. Not to mention the odd long trip out of Cairns….

I had a good chat with the builder regarding his thoughts on the need for tabs on this hull and he simply doesn't see the need. I did mention in my first post that whilst I haven't yet felt an urgent need for them, they might be a 'nice to have' item installed and he agreed (although he did reiterate 'his' hull is more than stable enough)

So there we are. Auto-pilot now, trim tabs later. I will check back in once I've had time to chew on my decision and possibly even eat my words!
Thanks again to everyone who replied. Your input is appreciated tremendously.

[chris69]

What happened to attaching a piece of rope to the wheel that worked for many for a lot of years before an auto pilot came along for rec fishers,just got to look at that GPS chart that's not a radar and keep an eye out and dodge those crab pots and shipping containers and those jet skies and boats with no anchor lights or nav lights

Yer not at the wheel and a collisions happens your duck sh*t.

[Volvo]

For some auto Pilot might mean taking your hands off the wheel give them a rest for long trips.
While you down some liquid refreshment.
Have a squirt.
And a host of other reasons without leaving the helm area .
Like previousely said , Trim Tabs would be the first option for this little Vegymite though.