Could it be the beginning of the ending for gas power?

[disorderly]

Couldonejust buy 20x 12v 100ah deep cycle boat/camp batteries and a management system to run 20 @ 12v for 240v dc 2000ah cost of each battery $200 surely no one could use 100% of the bank 2000amp hours is a hell of alot of power

Too much that you clearly dont understand about household power systems and batteries Gaz..plenty of forums on the internet and FB if you really want to begin to gain somewhat of an understanding...

if you are genuinely interested shoot me an email and I'm happy to provide some links...you could also start by taking a look at your power bill and taking it from there to gauge your own power usage.....

[ranmar850]

As to connecting a bunch of 12v up in series, you are increasing voltage string, not a/h capacity. Connect 20 in series. , you get 240v, but still only 100a/hrs of capacity. Connect 20 in parallel, you have 12v and 2000a/hr capacity. Well, 2000 amp hours from 12v seems like a lot, until you start using inverters. The sums are pretty simple as a rule of thumb--take the 240v current draw, then to run that same load off a 12v/240v inverter, you multiply the 240v draw by 20. So that kettle you think nothing of turning on, is generally 2.4kw. Most heating element stuff you can run off a socket outlet is rated for the max of that outlet, ie, 2400kw or 10 amps @ 240v. So that kettle is now drawing 200 amps from your 12 v system. Ok, it only runs for a few minutes, but you get the point. 300 amp/hr systems are very popular nowadays in small caravans, running 2.5kw-3 kw inverters, made much more effective by the adoption of LiFePo4 batteries. 600-800 watts of solar on the roof, DC-DC charger to bring them up if you are travelling. A basic system like this will cost you $10K in parts, before instal. That's buying ready made stuff. And currently, installers are hard put to keep up with demand. But, even at that size, you can only run the little AC if it's hot, nothing else, unless the van is cooled right down and is only cycling, you might get away with running the coffee machine. Or trip the inverter if the AC compressor cuts in while you are doing it. If you want to go truly off-grid and run off batteries, and not be running a gennie to charge them, you need to be very smart about energy useage.And lay off the inverters. As for getting 100a/hr deep cycles for $200 ea, you'll be getting rubbish that will likely last less than 3 years. Inverters kill old chemistry batteries pretty quick, they hate being drawn right down. Even the good ones are down to 50% of their original capacity after 500 cycles or so, will vary. And that 100 a/hr is actually only a useable 50a/hr.
Off-grid energy is actually a pretty simple equation--how much will you use in 24 hours, how much can you get back from your solar or whatever? If using the old chemistry, you need to put back in 1.1 to 1.2 times the energy you drew down. If using LiFePo4, it's so close to 1 to 1 it doesn't matter. And you can draw down to 20%, this is where the exaggerated claims of LIPO 100ah being the same as 200ah of AGM come from--its more like 150 ah in reality. From better quality stuff, not the $400 ebay specials. So, if you use 100 ah every 24 hrs, which isn't much, just a couple of Engels, one as a freezer, and some LED lights, phone charging, etc, and are relying on solar, you need to get 100ah back during available day light hours. If you have a perfectly sunny site, no shading, and track the sun, you can count on about 7 hours of max output per day. Plus a little bit at each end.So you just need 12 amps of steady solar, whch you can get from around 240 watts of panel. But bear in mind that, while you can pull a LIPO battery way down before the voltage drops, you are not doing it any favours in the longevity stakes. Regular deep discharging then charging back up to 100% is the worst thing you can do. If you can keep them between, say 60% and 90%, you will get very good life. This comes from generalised scientific research on the chemistry, not manufacturer's claims. In fact, the chemistry can last an infinite length of time,unlike old chemistry, if managed correctly. Temp, both high and very low, is important. It's a field I find very interesting, since I got the solar bug about 10 years ago, and LIPO batteries are a game-changer. I'm just changing over from the old AGM Fullrivers, after 8-9 years of hard use they are shot. Not complaining--I can replace them for $700 for the pair, but a 150ah LIPO is costing $1419, and will outlive the AGMS , as well as giving better performance, at a weight saving of 40kg for the batteries alone.

[gazza2006au]

Thanks Ran, im always getting series and parallel mixed up,

100ah @ 12v seems like a bit of power to use over 24 hour period, your only using a kettle for 3mins, a stove for 8-10mins, waterpumps only use 2amps for howevrr long for say a shower but yeah i agree it would add up

If one had a decent solar panel set up you could time your power use around the hours your panels are working during the day to minimise the banks usage

[Lovey80]

Hey Ranmar, that first rant of yours was a long one. Try using shorter paragraphs next time. That was a hard read.

While you defended the tornado black outs in 2016 in South Australia. What was their excuse in 2017 when they were forced to do black outta because of insufficient power generation during a heat wave? If I recall correctly, South Australia that year also had the highest electricity prices in the world. It was putting companies out of business.

im all for green power. Just as long as I don’t have to pay more for it. If green is cheaper and private money won’t invest in coal, then why are the prices going through the roof in places where there’s large scale up take of green power?

[shakey55]

As to connecting a bunch of 12v up in series, you are increasing voltage string, not a/h capacity. Connect 20 in series. , you get 240v, but still only 100a/hrs of capacity. Connect 20 in parallel, you have 12v and 2000a/hr capacity. Well, 2000 amp hours from 12v seems like a lot, until you start using inverters. The sums are pretty simple as a rule of thumb--take the 240v current draw, then to run that same load off a 12v/240v inverter, you multiply the 240v draw by 20. So that kettle you think nothing of turning on, is generally 2.4kw. Most heating element stuff you can run off a socket outlet is rated for the max of that outlet, ie, 2400kw or 10 amps @ 240v. So that kettle is now drawing 200 amps from your 12 v system. Ok, it only runs for a few minutes, but you get the point. 300 amp/hr systems are very popular nowadays in small caravans, running 2.5kw-3 kw inverters, made much more effective by the adoption of LiFePo4 batteries. 600-800 watts of solar on the roof, DC-DC charger to bring them up if you are travelling. A basic system like this will cost you $10K in parts, before instal. That's buying ready made stuff. And currently, installers are hard put to keep up with demand. But, even at that size, you can only run the little AC if it's hot, nothing else, unless the van is cooled right down and is only cycling, you might get away with running the coffee machine. Or trip the inverter if the AC compressor cuts in while you are doing it. If you want to go truly off-grid and run off batteries, and not be running a gennie to charge them, you need to be very smart about energy useage.And lay off the inverters. As for getting 100a/hr deep cycles for $200 ea, you'll be getting rubbish that will likely last less than 3 years. Inverters kill old chemistry batteries pretty quick, they hate being drawn right down. Even the good ones are down to 50% of their original capacity after 500 cycles or so, will vary. And that 100 a/hr is actually only a useable 50a/hr.
Off-grid energy is actually a pretty simple equation--how much will you use in 24 hours, how much can you get back from your solar or whatever? If using the old chemistry, you need to put back in 1.1 to 1.2 times the energy you drew down. If using LiFePo4, it's so close to 1 to 1 it doesn't matter. And you can draw down to 20%, this is where the exaggerated claims of LIPO 100ah being the same as 200ah of AGM come from--its more like 150 ah in reality. From better quality stuff, not the $400 ebay specials. So, if you use 100 ah every 24 hrs, which isn't much, just a couple of Engels, one as a freezer, and some LED lights, phone charging, etc, and are relying on solar, you need to get 100ah back during available day light hours. If you have a perfectly sunny site, no shading, and track the sun, you can count on about 7 hours of max output per day. Plus a little bit at each end.So you just need 12 amps of steady solar, whch you can get from around 240 watts of panel. But bear in mind that, while you can pull a LIPO battery way down before the voltage drops, you are not doing it any favours in the longevity stakes. Regular deep discharging then charging back up to 100% is the worst thing you can do. If you can keep them between, say 60% and 90%, you will get very good life. This comes from generalised scientific research on the chemistry, not manufacturer's claims. In fact, the chemistry can last an infinite length of time,unlike old chemistry, if managed correctly. Temp, both high and very low, is important. It's a field I find very interesting, since I got the solar bug about 10 years ago, and LIPO batteries are a game-changer. I'm just changing over from the old AGM Fullrivers, after 8-9 years of hard use they are shot. Not complaining--I can replace them for $700 for the pair, but a 150ah LIPO is costing $1419, and will outlive the AGMS , as well as giving better performance, at a weight saving of 40kg for the batteries alone.

I saw a bloke on TV put a large number of solar panels on his roof and made a minute difference to his large bill.

So he and a couple of neighbours got together and put in a large battery bank to run their homes. I think the battery bank cost something like $20k.

Somehow they need to get thus price way down and more people will invest in this type of thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Ausfish mobile app

[Noelm]

I think the difference between cars, boats and houses is vast and should not cross over, your house is "static" does not move, weight is not an issue, neither is a bunch of wires connected to it from the street, so for the purpose of this thread I guess, cars and boats should be the "target". Cars compared to boats are kind if easier, they return to a ready power source (so do trailer boats) but when in use, boats dont have access to charging facilities, plus weight is a far bigger issue, so, the whole "green" power, in a way is a seperate set of issues to different problems. As it stands, I can't see boats being electric or some other source until cars are fully sorted, to look at it as we know it right at the moment, the only free, renewable energy is the sun and wind, both kind of OK to make energy, but hardly "portable" or 24 hour reliable. An alternative energy source that we have to "make" might not be the answer, like (say) Hydrogen, it is a fascinating topic once you get into it, and way more complicated than it appears at first.

[Noelm]

Just kind if mulling this over, I wonder if the next big "thing" will be in solar panel development rather than the actual storage device (the battery) let's say a solar panel was discovered/invented that could actually run a car or boat, at decent speed, meaning during daylight hours, your car or boat could operate, completely green and free, rainy days and night driving would require a battery system of course, who knows? I hope I live long enough to see how it all pans out.

[gazza2006au]

Hey Noel would u say theres a difference between a boat with 100 litres of fuel or the equivillent in a battery bank on a boat, i guess what im saying is once your 100 litres of fuel is gone or your boat battery is flat your in the same situation, i think we need to work out how to pack more energy in a smaller battery pack to make it worthy in going electric boating maybe we could change that and focus on a electric geared motor that could gear down once up to speed and suck next to nothing power wise like a cruise economy with a fuel engine

That would be interesting..

[Noelm]

That would be good, but boats are not like cars, there is never any coasting or going down hill, they are forever needing power to maintain speed, cars and boats are worlds apart when electric is involved.

[stevej]

This should make it simple for you Gazza

One litre of gasoline contains the energy equivalent to 8.9 kWh of electricity
Batteries will never provide the same power for the same space taken for fuel

Some rough rounding up means at 12v 1liter of fuel equals 9 100 ah batteries
and even then you can only use 50-80 percent of that battery capacity on each discharge

Some new fuel source is needed such as hydrogen or something else

[disorderly]

Batteries are all fine and dandy if you are living in a caravan with a piddly fridge and using a kettle for "3 minutes" but the "average" home uses around 18-20 KW a day..

With 2 x 6kw systems during peak sun hours I can run my household and also be feeding a constant 10 kW back into the grid via 2 phases over the course of 7-8 hours per day..;(when the sun is out )

I produce up to 85-90KW per day on a good sunny day in summer which after my usage (16KW per day) so over 75 KW goes back to the grid during the sunny daytime .

I am credited around 8c per kw and then at night I pay about 28c per kw for my usage drawn back from the grid which is deducted from my credit.

It sounds like i should be way ahead but then you have to take into account wet and cloudy days when production can be just one quarter or a third of that but all told my system so far means even after paying the fees to be on the grid we are always still in credit...

So whilst I'd love to be "off grid" and totally power self sufficient with my own batteries ..the cost is prohibitive..

For the cheapest Calb or Winstons that would enable me to be off grid and have no power worries during mid winter when peak sun hours are at their lowest would probably set me back roughly 60-80K....

It was way cheaper for me to pay an extra 6K for a second system to build up my daytime credit to totally cover my bills, even receiving such a low price for infeed, then to even consider batteries..

and when I finally get aircon, well , imagine the cost of batteries to run that all night for a household in an uninsulated tropical shack...

Yep feeding back to the grid will remain by far the best "battery" for some time to come... in fact I dont think LiFePO4 batteries will ever be affordable for the purpose..

As Noel mentions above, It will take a breakthrough in new technology to make household power storage a viable option..and wont even be a consideration for primary electric motors on your average trailerboats until their is a very radical breakthrough.

IMG_2226.jpg

[Noelm]

Back to houses, even though we shouldn't be, because of the reason I mentioned before, our bill here was around $600-700, that is for two households, when I put the pool in, I also installed solar panels (6.3KW) the pool pump runs 5 hours a day, and it has electric heating, running when the pump is on, so there is a considerable increase in consumption, we have also added a small 50l electric storage hot water system, our bill now is less than $200, so there is considerable savings. Now back to boats and cars........I agree that we need a "break through" what that is I don't know, if it will be with storage or initial "generation" modern electric cars are pretty good, have decent range and work OK, almost all newer shopping centres have dedicated "green" parking/charging spots, but that is simply not possible with a boat, that's why I reckon boats will be way after cars, in mainstream use that is.

[gazza2006au]

Ok but what if we came up with a electric motor that was a torque monster, low speed 200rpm, high voltage low amp, spinning lets say 3 inline propellers haha im throwing that out there as an idea

Instead of trying to use a electric motor to propelle a regular gasoline engine propeller which the electri motor would need to turn at the same rpm as a petrol engine for the same output which technically wouldnt work

Say we add a gearbox that motors 200rpm transferred thru agearbox to output 5500rpm gasoline engine equivilent

Could we convert that low rpm torque monster electric motorto be capible of something like this?

A car has no problem transferring it power thru a gearbox to go up a continoues hill its just not designed to using a gearbox to gain torque and speed for a lesser engine speed could very much work for electric outboards its just not workable with petrol outboards at the moment because they dont have the torque ability to be geared down and maintain the power

[stevej]

We already have electric outboards it’s already here and working

they are not fit for purpose of long distance travel in large boats
A few manufacturers also have those high output units but again limited range

electric motors are in use in in ocean going ships but they either burn oil to power them via generators or nuclear reactors

[ranmar850]

To be kind, I wonder where some people are getting their "information", ie, "I saw where some bloke put a big bank of solar up and it made a minute difference to his power bill," Unquote. Obviously more to the story than you might get from NewsCorp. Disorderly is running a much larger setup than mine--in WA, with a single phase domestic supply, you are limited to 5.2 kw array, 10 kw, IIRC, if you have a 3-phase supply. I suffer shading issues, but my average monthly bill is around $125 in Autumn/winter spring, and around $200 in summer, and we are using the AC a lot more than we used to, since installing solar. And $54 of that bill is your basic, inescapable service charge. We only get 7.1c/unit feedback tariff as well. I'd rather use up the energy we are producing, than feed it back in. So, effectively, we can run AC all over the house during the hottest time of the day for 7.1c/hr. Bills have more than halved, even with tariff increases. Storage is the answer, but costs need to come down. Western Power is currently doing trials with something like you mentioned, taking whole blocks of residential, and essentially micro-gridding them; they are off the network, but able to be auto-reconnected if their storage/generation can't keep up.

The major challenge facing networks is not the ability of renewables to generate, it is the ability of the legacy systems to integrate. Systems which were designed early in the last century around synchronous( ie, spinning) generation have been mightily challenged by large scale introduction of inverter integation, ie solar. The challenges are really twofold--around frequency control, and lack of storage to take advantage of the huge excesses produced at times by the nature of the new technology. The storage part of this equation is currently being addressed, with a number of massive storage facilities in a number of states currently in late planning/early construction stages. The frequency control challenge is also being addressed, the technology is there. The widely publicised Tesla installation ( The Hornsdale Power Reserve) in SA is tiny by comparison, now at 150Mw. Originally 100mw.

The 2017 rolling blackouts in SA -not the entire state, BTW--were caused by demand, and yes, it was the conjunction of night and no wind, and lasted for several hours. It was a simple equation, they didn't have enough , it was a heatwave, and the interconnector to Vic couldn't make the shortfall due to high demand elsewhere. And another BTW, this had also happened before they went big on renewables. Since then, they have expanded the Hornsdale Reserve by another 50Mw. As well as introducing small-scale storage on an increasing scale.

These are the transition years, and things are moving very quickly indeed, with great technical challenges. There are a significant number of " stranded", fully constructed solar farms in Australia, that cannot get grid connection, both because they are not hard up against an existing trans line, and/or because the network operator cannot manage the energy they will introduce. And managing domestic solar generation is also a big challenge for the networks, particularly in WA and S, with the largest uptake rates in the world. Storage is the answer to this. The problem starts "behind the meter" , so fix it behind the meter with individual storage, or go large scale.Flatten off the overproduction during the middle of the day by storage, then feed the increased evening demand by using the stored energy. Sounds simple, and the concept is, it's the actual execution thats the challenging part.

My posts are too long.