Run electronics only from auxiliary battery

[BillB]

I had a problem with my Humminbird Helix sounder not starting up. I checked that there was power to the sounder from the dedicated fused power cable to the sounder. I phoned the service agents BLA and spoke to a technician. After checking that I was sure that there was power to the sounder, he asked was the sounder separately powered by an auxiliary battery that was completely independent of the outboards charging system. I said no why should it be? He said that was likely to be the problem. He said an electrical spike from the outboards charging system probably damaged the sounder and to return the sounder to him for repairs. I challenged the necessity of providing an auxiliary battery and wasn't told to do that by the sounder dealer. The technician wasn't ready to accept the sounders should have inbuilt protection against spikes from the charging system.

What is everyone's thoughts on this? Have you been told to provide auxiliary batteries to power your modern electronics?

Footnote: As I was packing the sounder up for return, I had an inspiration.I plugged in the memory card used to install software updates and the sounder started up. It didn't do any update, just started normally. The sounder now works normally without the card installed.
Cheers,
Bill

[scottar]

No manufacturer can provide protection for all fault circumstances that may occur outside their control. That said, you were basically given a line of bullshit IMO as a way to open the door on declining any sort or warranty claim. Does it happen - sure but it's pretty rare.

Should modern electronics be provided a separate source of power independent of the CHARGING system? Not in my opinion. Is every boat that does longer passages supposed to swap out batteries as required so they can be recharged? Bloody ridiculous statement really and if they are that sensitive, the manual should state that installation of a power conditioning device is required at a minimum. Should they be run off a power source independent of the STARTING system? This is a completely different kettle of fish to which I am thinking more along the lines of yes these days. Some breeds of equipment are becoming a lot less tolerant to voltage drop created by starting. It doesn't normally do damage but the potential is there.

[BillB]

The sounder stopped while the motor was running. Anyway I don't put the sounder on until the motor is running. I agree the agent was only looking for a way out. It was out of the 2 year manufacturers warranty but I put it on him that the sounder was only 3 years old and according to consumer laws I was entitled to expect a longer life out of the sounder. He didn't accept that and continued on about spikes killing the sounder and not entitled to any sort of warranty. I told him I had Furuno sounders for the last 40 years and had no problem with them and told him I was an electronics tech for the last 50 years and had at times worked on sounders (admittedly the old paper type). He said technology has changed since my time. I gave up when the argument was going around in circles.

[baitable]

You can always wire up an inline capacitor which will help smooth out the spikes and also help with the voltage drops. I did this in my boat for the voltage drop reason and my vx2 switching on and off (furuno). I brought the product from the states and it is essentially a VSR relay attached to a secondary battery. A capacitor would also do the job if you''re friendly with a switched on auto leccie.

[gunna]

Some years back we tried to jump start my motor. My battery was flat so we grabbed a spare and connected to my battery with jumper. Everything electrical ran off the starter battery. Something spiked and destroyed my radio and sounder.

[BillB]

I see Jaycar have a 10A DC noise filter. I might install that.

[Dignity]

These days it's smarter to say the equipment is run from an independent power supply. The only problem is that the next excuse is a reduced power supply. They want win/win generally. Honestly their response is absolute BS. For every response they give you have an alternative come back. I'm sure you'll get enough here.

I forgot to mention, ask them for solutions, mention you've done that regardless, interesting to hear their come back.

I do run my electronics from a separate system charged by the auxiliary charging system from the motor. Everything I've researched says I should'nt have an issue.

[scottar]

I see Jaycar have a 10A DC noise filter. I might install that.

If you want to do it properly, look at a Intervolt Power conditioner or similar.

[The Mad Cat]

If you want to do it properly, look at a Intervolt Power conditioner or similar.

Is something like this what your talking about Scottar.
http://amelec.com.au/products/intervolt/spci-gen-ii-maxi-12-12-vdc-10amps
here's another one it looks a more basic model.
http://www.intervolt.com/product/switchmode-voltage-stabilisers

Thanks,
TMC

[scottar]

Is something like this what your talking about Scottar.
http://amelec.com.au/products/intervolt/spci-gen-ii-maxi-12-12-vdc-10amps
here's another one it looks a more basic model.
http://www.intervolt.com/product/switchmode-voltage-stabilisers

Thanks,
TMC

Yep, that's them. I've used them previously for gear that is sensitive to overvoltage created by charging systems - provided the voltage is within their input ratings.

[Dignity]

Yep, that's them. I've used them previously for gear that is sensitive to overvoltage created by charging systems - provided the voltage is within their input ratings.

It's interesting that some manufacturers actually specify input ratings that are easily found. I 've been fortunate where nothing has fried to date. I suspect if that happens then there could be other issues involved. Maybe some fairly old motors, these days the electronics are fairly precise.

[Moonlighter]

Oh and by the way, by putting the SD card in and out, youve probably cleaned the card contacts in the unit, which is why it then worked.

I have come across several occasions (first on a mate’s boat) where dirty SD card contacts, or dirty contacts in the card reader cause a “startup fail”. Typically it tries to start but gets to a point where its trying to read what it thinks is the Sd card and gets into a fatal loop when it can’t.

So a VERY careful cleaning of the unit contacts with some electronics cleaner spray or a cotton bud dipped in metho might be worth doing as well.

The ideal situation is to run electronics etc off a dedicated house battery, using a VSR arrangement between batteries so they both stay charged, this will also protect electronics from voltage spikes. My current boat uses a BEP dual charging cluster, its got separate switches to turn start and house batteries on and off, and a third switch that combines both batteries in an emergency (eg the start battery fails). The VSR in the system keeps them both charged up nicely and separates them when the engine is off.

But it shouldn't be mandatory, not have I seen such a requirement referenced in the electronics unit’s manual. But you do want to keep battery terminals clean and tight, and all wiring in good condition.

[Dignity]

Does the VSR have a power conditioner or is that still needed to be added to the system.

[scottar]

It's interesting that some manufacturers actually specify input ratings that are easily found. I 've been fortunate where nothing has fried to date. I suspect if that happens then there could be other issues involved. Maybe some fairly old motors, these days the electronics are fairly precise.

Most common issue when it does happen is a bad connection to the battery. Battery switches and the practice of changing the position of a dual battery switch with the motor running are the most common culprits. A lot of the older motors used regulators that were pretty agricultural and some only rectified - relying entirely on the battery to bring the voltage down to safe levels for electronics. With even the quickest of battery disconnects the voltage would rise to levels that will pretty much damage any DC powered equipment. The highest I ever saw one of my own was over 100 volts DC. Starting voltage dip would be the second most common cause but from a technicians stand point it's pretty much impossible to say that it "was definitely" the cause. High voltage (or reverse polarity) would usually kill a zener diode in the circuit to protect the rest of the device and was a give away that one or the other had occurred.

[scottar]

Does the VSR have a power conditioner or is that still needed to be added to the system.

A VSR is nothing more than an electronic switch. By their operation and the fact there is a second battery in the system they do offer a form of power conditioning but not like an actual power conditioner. Any AC ripple in the charging output will still be seen by whatever is connected and the voltage seen by the electronics will still vary dependent on whether the second battery is charging or not. The second battery in conjunction with the VSR disconnecting will minimise voltage dip and the way the system is wired means there is typically no way the charging output could be disconnected from all batteries and still connected to the boats electronics.