Trailer and tyre issues

[Alchemy]

I am looking for advice to help me sort out some trailer and tyre issues. I have an Origin alloy trailer with IRS axles, 15" wheels rated to 3500kg. I have too much weight on the ball, and have figured out that I need to move my axles forward by 550 to 600mm. This is not an easy job as the guards are welded to the trailer frame. I have known about the ball weight issue since soon after getting the boat, but I didn't appreciate how this would lead to other problems down the track.

My first tyre failure occurred on the way home to Townsville after a trip to Karumba in late 2013, with one tyre totally destroyed. When I got home I had another flat, and then found wire sticking out of a third tyre! Needless to say I replaced all tyres. At this point the trailer had travelled Brisbane to Townsville, Townsville to Karumba x 2, and numerous trips to Lucinda and Cardwell out of Townsville. The tyre mob told me the tyres were an old batch, but I now have my doubts.

Since then, I have done a few trips up north to Cardwell/Lucinda (from Townsville), towed the boat back to Brisbane and have completed one 1770 and one Hervey Bay trip from Brisbane.Late last year I noticed my tyres separating, and again replaced all tyres. Tyres used to date have been Kenda 215/70-15 light truck. These have a load rating of 107/109 and speed rating of R. This weekend just gone I was flagged down by a friendly driver on the Gateway Motorway to tell me smoke was coming from my trailer. Upon inspection I found the rear starboard tyre separated. All of my trips since replacing the tyres in December have been Logan area to Manly and home. BMT has been under 3500kg as I have only being doing day trips with the family to chase whiting and have a swim.

Now, I get that the extra ball load will add extra load to the front trailer tyres and axle, but am wondering why I have destroyed a new rear tyre especially when the boat was relatively light? So, my first question (sorry for the long winded ramble to get there) is what tyres and sizes are those of you with big boats using and what life are you getting? I would hope to get five years.

The second part is the best way to deal with the axle relocation. I was considering a third braked axle and getting the trailer re-rated to 4500kg, but I have been warned off tri-axle as they are a lot more difficult to manoeuvre in tight spaces, plus it would add weight to the trailer. So the options the way I see them are;

1. Move both axles forward and have new guards fabricated and welded into place, and continue with the same size rims/tyres.
2. As point 1 but fabricate the guards larger to accommodate 16"rims/tyres (this is a no brainer if I go ahead with point 1).
3. Have a cradle fabricated that incorporates guards so I can fine tune the ball weight.
4. Sell the trailer and start again!

Looking forward to some advice.

Thanks,
Dave.

[Moejoes]

Hi Dave,
What weight do you have on the ball? Sounds like a serious weight.
Have you checked the alignment of the axles to ensure they are parallel to each other to ensure correct wheel alignment?
I can check and give you the tyres I run on my 4.5ton trailer if you want.
I run 16" on a dual axle setup.
Option 3 would probably be the best as you can also replace & change axles / hubs and bearings to suit the extra weight rating increase and cost you about $5k if done yourself.
Unless you want to buy a new trailer spend $18k again
Let me know if you want contacts for the upgrade and yearly inspections.

Cheers Rob

[DAVE_S]

Have you tried a different brand of tyre ?

[Noelm]

What about moving the boat back a bit, is that an option? lots of trailers this is possible depending on the rear setup and the winch post.

[Kondo 1]

I would start with some decent tires, I had Kenda's once and they were horrible and cheap. I would get a really good light truck tire - and a higher load rating too because a Landcruiser has a similar GVM and the minimum there is 118.

On top of that maybe try a tire pressure sensor monitor - a good one though that is mounted on the rim, not the valve - that will allow you to see if your temps or pressures are varying wildly, or there is a difference between each axle. If the front is vastly more than you know it is carrying more because the temp will increase over the rear.

If you don't want to do that then get a good temperature gun and go for a drive stopping semi regularly.

Personally I wouldn't be rushing to move the axles, I would put some good tires on first, and i could be wrong but I reckon your load rating is way too low so could be a big part of your problem.


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[sportfish58]

G'day Dave,
I think you need to review the load rating of your tyres. Maybe go to a better quality slightly larger 15" tyre with a higher load rating if you have the clearance to do so. Have you looked at moving your boat back on the trailer a little to remove some of the tow ball weight. ball weight should be around 10% of the BMT. I had a heavy boat on a single axle trailer that use to eat up tyres until I got sick of having blowouts, drove into a tyre dealer after the last one and told them to put the best light truck tyres they had in stock (Goodyears at the time) and never had another issue with tyres.
Cheers

[Alchemy]

Hi Dave,
What weight do you have on the ball? Sounds like a serious weight.
Have you checked the alignment of the axles to ensure they are parallel to each other to ensure correct wheel alignment?
I can check and give you the tyres I run on my 4.5ton trailer if you want.
I run 16" on a dual axle setup.
Option 3 would probably be the best as you can also replace & change axles / hubs and bearings to suit the extra weight rating increase and cost you about $5k if done yourself.
Unless you want to buy a new trailer spend $18k again
Let me know if you want contacts for the upgrade and yearly inspections.

Cheers Rob

Rob, ball weight is a bit under 500kg. I haven't checked the axle alignment though tyres haven't shown signs of odd wear, but I will check this - thanks! I agree that option 3 is the best, but funds are tight atm. I thought that if I got the axle positioning right that would buy me time before outlaying cash on new axles etc. I also have 11" stainless disks that I love, and believe I would need to go to 12" disks if I was uprating to 4500kg (along with axles etc). If you could tell me the tyres you're using, when you get time then I would appreciate that.

Have you tried a different brand of tyre ?

- Dave, simple answer is no. I didn't figure out the relationship between tyre issues and front axle load until I had replaced the tyres! Now I have, I would prefer to find a higher load rated tyre, and if that means going to 16" then so be it.

What about moving the boat back a bit, is that an option? lots of trailers this is possible depending on the rear setup and the winch post.

- Noel, unfortunately no. Everything is welded on this trailer, including the winch post. When I calculated the distance the axles needed to move, we winched the boat backwards off the trailer 550mm. At that point the keel wasn't touching the front roller, so moving the boat back creates another host of issues/work!

I would start with some decent tires, I had Kenda's once and they were horrible and cheap. I would get a really good light truck tire - and a higher load rating too because a Landcruiser has a similar GVM and the minimum there is 118.

On top of that maybe try a tire pressure sensor monitor - a good one though that is mounted on the rim, not the valve - that will allow you to see if your temps or pressures are varying wildly, or there is a difference between each axle. If the front is vastly more than you know it is carrying more because the temp will increase over the rear.

If you don't want to do that then get a good temperature gun and go for a drive stopping semi regularly.

Personally I wouldn't be rushing to move the axles, I would put some good tires on first, and i could be wrong but I reckon your load rating is way too low so could be a big part of your problem.


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Kondo, thanks for the info. If I can find a higher rated and good quality 15" tyre then I will be tempted to try it, though I don't get why I got three years out of the first set, towing some big distances over very average roads in very hot conditions, only to have issues when i get back south to better roads, cooler temps and short distances? While not as accurate as an infra red thermo, I always feel by hand my hub and tyres when I stop on long runs, and they have always felt ok, though I know my hand is not as accurate as a thermometer, so good tip!

G'day Dave,
I think you need to review the load rating of your tyres. Maybe go to a better quality slightly larger 15" tyre with a higher load rating if you have the clearance to do so. Have you looked at moving your boat back on the trailer a little to remove some of the tow ball weight. ball weight should be around 10% of the BMT. I had a heavy boat on a single axle trailer that use to eat up tyres until I got sick of having blowouts, drove into a tyre dealer after the last one and told them to put the best light truck tyres they had in stock (Goodyears at the time) and never had another issue with tyres.
Cheers

Thanks Sportfish. There is stuff all extra room within the guards, so I doubt I would fit a bigger rolling diameter tyre in there without it potentially rubbing and therefore leading to early failure.

[Moejoes]

Agree with tyres first.
Defiantly sounds like your tyres are under rated, especially if the front ones are copping most the load.
107 are rated to 975kgs and 109 to 1030kgs according to the chart below.
I'm pretty sure I'm running 116 or 118 light truck tyres.
Probably cost you $800 to $1000 for new set of 4 but if you are changing to 16" would be a waste. ( Something to consider ).
500kgs isn't a massive weight but still well over recommended. I was expecting you were going to say 750kgs plus on the ball to be chewing out tyres as you described
I have 280kgs 6% to 7% on my ball for 4200kgs and the trailer rides really well.
All depends on overall setup and balance of whole rig of course.
load_index_en_tcm1076-92562.jpg

[scottar]

Hi Dave.

Jeff72 (if he still watches Ausfish ??) is my BIL. Was talking with him just recently as I noticed the tire pressure monitor in his cruiser for towing his Origin. One thing I found of interest was that he said he runs different pressures in different tires as a result of monitoring the temps. Might be worth shooting him a PM mate.

Regards

Scott

[gofishin]

What tyre pressure(s) were you running Dave and what was max rated for the tyres you have tried? Have you ever taken spot temps of tyres/rims with an IR etc? A few friends have had Kendas and they were crap.

I would be checking axle loads on the weigh bridge too (heavy and lightships), and trying decent tyres (with suitable pressures) before committing to moving axles, as that will not be a simple task on your trailer as you have mentioned - not to mention that you then become the designer/builder of that trailer etc in the eyes of the law (if ever insurance gets called upon).

Cheers
Brendon


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[Feral]

do you have proper "walking gear" suspension? and are the axles aligned correctly?

[Mr__Bean]

Not saying this is your problem, but something to consider.

If tyres are left in the sun then they begin to form very fine rubber cracks in the sidewall rubber, these fine cracks allow moisture to migrate into the tyre along the carcass plies and the internal tyre belting. If fitted to a car then this isn't too much of a problem because as soon as you drive the car the tyre warms up and the moisture dissipates. If however the tyre is stored on the back of your 4wd or RV without a cover then tyre failure like this is common due to water ingress and steel belting corrosion within the tyre, like in the photo.

So, on our boat trailers if we store with the tyre in the sun and the tyre gets the fine sidewall cracks then when we go down the ramp with a warm tyre some of the salt water gets drawn into the tyre, being saltwater the corrosion happens quicker than rain water.

As I said, not sure it is in any way relevant to your failures but if you store your boat outdoors with a cover over it, then cover the tyres too.

Attachment 115475
TireExplosion7.jpg

[littlejim]

rather than move the axles forward could you weld some extra metal into the section leading up to the towball to achieve a similar result? (I dunno not an enjunear.)
Go with the suggestions to buy brand name tyres and axle alignment checks.

[Alchemy]

Agree with tyres first.
Defiantly sounds like your tyres are under rated, especially if the front ones are copping most the load.
107 are rated to 975kgs and 109 to 1030kgs according to the chart below.
I'm pretty sure I'm running 116 or 118 light truck tyres.
Probably cost you $800 to $1000 for new set of 4 but if you are changing to 16" would be a waste. ( Something to consider ).
500kgs isn't a massive weight but still well over recommended. I was expecting you were going to say 750kgs plus on the ball to be chewing out tyres as you described
I have 280kgs 6% to 7% on my ball for 4200kgs and the trailer rides really well.
All depends on overall setup and balance of whole rig of course.

Rob, turns out the tyres are rated at 107 in a dual application and 109 in single, so therefore I have 4 x 1030kg worth. Thanks for the feedback on your ball weight. Mine tows beautifully too, with 90 psi in the F trucks air bags!

Hi Dave.

Jeff72 (if he still watches Ausfish ??) is my BIL. Was talking with him just recently as I noticed the tire pressure monitor in his cruiser for towing his Origin. One thing I found of interest was that he said he runs different pressures in different tires as a result of monitoring the temps. Might be worth shooting him a PM mate.

Regards

Scott

Thanks Scott - will do.

What tyre pressure(s) were you running Dave and what was max rated for the tyres you have tried? Have you ever taken spot temps of tyres/rims with an IR etc? A few friends have had Kendas and they were crap.

I would be checking axle loads on the weigh bridge too (heavy and lightships), and trying decent tyres (with suitable pressures) before committing to moving axles, as that will not be a simple task on your trailer as you have mentioned - not to mention that you then become the designer/builder of that trailer etc in the eyes of the law (if ever insurance gets called upon).

Cheers
Brendon


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Brendon, tyres are 109 or 1030kg rated.

do you have proper "walking gear" suspension? and are the axles aligned correctly?

Feral, I guess you are talking about load sharing suspension? If so, then answer is no. I have an IRS set up.

Not saying this is your problem, but something to consider.

If tyres are left in the sun then they begin to form very fine rubber cracks in the sidewall rubber, these fine cracks allow moisture to migrate into the tyre along the carcass plies and the internal tyre belting. If fitted to a car then this isn't too much of a problem because as soon as you drive the car the tyre warms up and the moisture dissipates. If however the tyre is stored on the back of your 4wd or RV without a cover then tyre failure like this is common due to water ingress and steel belting corrosion within the tyre, like in the photo.

So, on our boat trailers if we store with the tyre in the sun and the tyre gets the fine sidewall cracks then when we go down the ramp with a warm tyre some of the salt water gets drawn into the tyre, being saltwater the corrosion happens quicker than rain water.

As I said, not sure it is in any way relevant to your failures but if you store your boat outdoors with a cover over it, then cover the tyres too.

Attachment 115475
TireExplosion7.jpg

Thanks Mr Bean. My trailer has been stored outside ever since I left Townsville two years ago, so I will bear this in mind.

Other info I have gathered today - a big thanks to Datcol. Col sourced the tyres for me when the trailer was first built in 2010 and today put me in touch with the distributor, who replaced the tyre FOC and without fuss. Thanks too to Top Tyres! I have been running 55psi in my tyres, and the tyre rep recommended I run 65psi which is the maximum pressure. His advice was that to achieve maximum load capacity from the tyre, then maximum inflation is required. I will do this and see how the Kendas go, and I am not writing them off at this stage. Also, the tyre that failed was my spare which I fitted a couple of months or so ago when I replaced all four tyres on the road. This tyre was a 2013 build. I will still investigate/price up options to reduce the ball load, but as pointed out to me today, the trailer tows level once the air bags in the F truck are inflated.

Thanks for all the feedback. If I have any more issues, or go down the path of modifications then I will report back.

Regards,
Dave.

[Moejoes]

Hi Dave,
I was going to mention the PSI rating last night but went to bed instead
They told me to get max rating they had to be at 80psi as that is what they are designed for.
I run them at 65psi which yes does drop the rating as I didn't want them so hard and was looking for some shock absorption in the tyre.
So far so good after 2 years.

Cheers Rob.