help with size/weight

[KEMEL K]

Holy crap, very nice Ross!!! yeah those weights seem about the norm by the looks of it. I see one of those pics is at b/heads ramp by the looks so when you say in town do you mean bundy?? If so yeah would love to run me eye over her. Current rig is a Andrew McDonald-smith design 7.4m cc built by Russ Dick at rmd fab bloody awesome and love it only problem and a great one to have I might add so does the wife and young kids 6,8,11yo even the overnighting out the reef exposed to all the elements. still get out with the boys heaps so hard top seems next step while were all keen. Give us bit more comfort, and will be done Russ again for sure. Ross my no. is 0401 913 948 or my business "Bundy Pies" 41518533 Look forward to having a chat.
KEV.

[KEMEL K]

Bloddy hell this is doing my head in. now after a read and re- read and re........ if I do the up grade on the GVM of the cruiser I understand that will not increase the 3.5t tow of my vehicle knew that not possible going in to this. But mine is the sahara model so was looking for extra GVM so can carry at least SOME crew in tow vehicle. Now am I right this will allow this to happen and still allow a 3.5t trailer
or is my head about to spin completely f#@$ing off!!!
KEV

[Moejoes]

Hi Kev,
Last I checked, you cannot increase your total GCVM ( Gross Combined Vehicle Mass = Car & Trailer / Load ) by upgrading your vehicles GVM.
Ask Pedders or who ever can do the vehicle GVM upgrade and see what they say.
You can also call Toyota for the GCVM for your Sahara.
My 2012 - LC200 GXL GCVM was 6850kgs and I believe the Sahara is worse because of the extras it has.
Let us know how you go as I'm keen to know if it has changed.
Cheers Rob.

[KEMEL K]

Yep good one Rob, thought that may be the case. might have to down grade sahara to gxl to pick up extra weight for people in vehicle. up to couple hundred kgs by the looks of the links attached t this thread.

[scottar]

Unless things have changed, the cruiser does not have a published GCVM. It is only a calculated figure derived by the addition of the GVM and the maximum towing capacity. This "loophole" if you wish to call it that means that with the GVM upgrade does allow the addition of the upgraded GVM and the maximum tow capacity to be added to calculate the new GCVM. If the GCVM was a published figure, then the extra weight in the tow vehicle is deducted from the permissible tow weight.

[Moejoes]

Unless things have changed, the cruiser does not have a published GCVM. It is only a calculated figure derived by the addition of the GVM and the maximum towing capacity. This "loophole" if you wish to call it that means that with the GVM upgrade does allow the addition of the upgraded GVM and the maximum tow capacity to be added to calculate the new GCVM. If the GCVM was a published figure, then the extra weight in the tow vehicle is deducted from the permissible tow weight.

Agree Scottar.
I don't believe Toyota publish it, but it is available when you call them.
The insurance Lawyers will find a loophole to not payout a 20 mil lawsuit if a GCVM exist and you exceed it.
Make some phone calls tomorrow to Pedders & Toyota Kev and let us know your findings.

[KEMEL K]

yep will do. But my money is on getting the run around from both with no definitive answer either way from either. STAY TUNED.

[gofishin]

... The issue with 200's is the abysmal payload - from memory about 700kg - this has to cover people, fuel, any of the trick toys we like to bolt to our rigs like heavy steel bull bars, winches, draw systems, bigger tyres, roof racks, extra batteries, tools and the like as well as the approximate 10% of the tow weight on the towball...

Scottty, as Toyota specify a 'Kerb Mass' and not a 'Tare Mass', a full fuel tank (standard Toyota tank) has already been included in the 'Mass', and therefore does not have to be allowed for in any LC200 payload calculations based on GVM.

As per ADR specifications/definitions, "Kerb Mass" = "Unladen Mass" and includes all fluid tanks full to capacity, including the 'standard' Toyota fuel tank.

"Tare Mass" only includes 10 litres of fuel in the tank (as per ADR specs). This is (was?) an unknown catch for a few dual cab owners, as some are/were specified with a 'Tare Mass', others with a 'Kerb Mass'.

Kev, ~26+ months ago I did a ship load of research into this before I bought the LC200. I just checked on the big 'Puter' and did save some references. Thought I had also saved copies of posted Registration/Compliance papers (and info on who did the mods) that I found thru forums, but alas, can't find them.

As you will see following, there was mass confusion on this subject, and it seems still is... Here were links I saved back then. Have not done any further research - probably a lot more info available now. It will be interesting to hear what you are told now from Lovells/ARB. As you will read in the following, it seems even they gave conflicting advice.

The second link Lee posted previously also confirms that the GVM upgrade does not reduce towing capacity for the LC200.

The point on which I haven't been able to get precise confirmation is the weight that can be legally towed after the GVM upgrade bearing in mind that I have been verbally advised by both ARB and Qld Transport that any increase in GVM is deducted from the towing capacity which I find to be in conflict with the following written advice from Qld Transport:

"If the manufacturer has specified GVM but not the GCM rating for a towing vehicle, then it can be loaded up to its GVM (including any vertical load on the coupling joint) and it can tow a trailer loaded equal to or less than the towing vehicle's Rated Towing Capacity which is also specified by the vehicle manufacturer"

To my knowledge Landcruisers have no specified GCM and this has been confirmed by Toyota. If this is correct then the advice from Qld Transport clearly indicates that the vehicles towing capacity is considered quite separately from the GVM and this suggests that the tow vehicle can tow a trailer up to its rated towing capacity irrespective of the upgraded GVM. The trailer can have an ATM up to but not exceeding the tow vehicles rated towing capacity. In the case of a 100/200 series landcruiser that is 3500kg. Based on the advice of Qld Transport it appears that the matter of GCM isn't relevant in any vehicle except a category NC (heavy goods vehicle).

The last sentence above is not correct. If a GCM is provided by the manufacturer, it must be adhered to under Law.
See here for a full read...
http://www.kedronownersgroup.com/for...showtopic=1231

Another one I saved as below. I also recall another, with a 3800/3800 towing upgrade (with posted copy of compliance papers), but did not save details/or I can't find them!

All this info was from a few years ago, including 3800/3850 upgrade as below.

1. Our 200 Series has a Lovells GVM upgrade to 3800kg. This is signed off by an approved Engineer. The appropriate Compliance Plate is affixed to the vehicle. The NSW RTA has endorsed this modification and it is referenced on Registration documents. Our Insurance company has been advise and have accepted the modification. The Engineers Certificate must be carried in the vehicle at all times.

2. Our 200 Series also has an upgraded Towing Capacity to 3850kg. This is signed off by an Approved Engineer. As with the GVM upgrade, an appropriate Compliance Plate has been fitted, the RTA have been notified, the Registration documents duly acknowledge the modifications and the Insurance company has been notified and accepted the modifications. A copy of the Engineers Certificate must be carried in the vehicle at all times...

See here for full read...
http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/...ith_LC200.aspx

ADR Definitions here...
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/legi...comp3FINAL.pdf

Cheers
Brendon

[scottar]

Caught another post of yours from 2013 as well Brendan where by calculation you need a gvm upgrade to simply get to the "calculated GCM of 6800 Kg" legally anyway. Even with the Lovells 500Kg GVM upgrade, you only can effectively increase the GCM by 150kg and remain legal if I read it right. (depending on the trailer compliance plate).

[gofishin]

Not sure which post that would be Scotty, however what I assume you are talking about is that the theoretical figure of GCM everyone has mentioned, of 6850kg = 3350 (GVM) + 3500 (max towed trailer mass), is incorrect, in fact not physically possible if we follow the ADR Regs? This is 100% correct. However, sometimes manufacturers specify (dream up!) there own calculation/figure.

This all comes about because the towball download is borne by the vehicle, and thus must be incorporated into the GVM of that vehicle, as it is indeed 'a load'. This of course is also reflected in the ADR definition of the 'GCM', which states something like ...
the GCM is the sum of the GVM of the vehicle towing the trailer, and the axle mass of that trailer... or close enough. Now the axle mass of the trailer is it's GTM, so GCM = GVM + GTM.

I.e. Let's assume we have an 3500kg BMT, (which is also the ATM), with 10% (350kg) on the ball.

The trailer axle mass or GTM therefore = 3500 - 350 = 3150, and...
The GCM is therefore = 3350 + 3150 = 6500kg (if we followed the Law, with 350kg on the ball). Obviously as the towball down mass changes, so does this calc.

So therefore, unless you had a GVM upgrade to start with (or an increased towable limit), you could never physically get to a GCM of 6850kg (well unless you had 0kg on the ball - then God help the driver, passengers and everyone else on the road). Is this what you are talking about?

However.... when a vehicle manufacturer states or calculates their own GCM, that becomes 'the Law' regardless of what the ADR definition states.

Some specify a derated GCM on purpose (i.e. 2013 Ranger/BT50), to legally limit the 'combined loading', others (i.e. 2013 D-Max) specify a GCM that is not physically possible to attain unless a 0% towball download is used. (Note: 2013 is when I last reviewed all the specs, haven't done it since).

Hmmmm, way too many acronyms hey! Must have been dreamt up by a bloody Engineer
Cheers
Brendon

Edit: typo in my original GVM value, I just corrected it.





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[scottar]

So therefore, unless you had a GVM upgrade to start with (or an increased towable limit), you could never physically get to a GCM of 6800kg (well unless you had 0kg on the ball - then God help the driver, passengers and everyone else on the road). Is this what you are talking about?

That's the one. Short of ball weight variations as you stated.

[PB]

Our 650, (7.2m LOA) came it at 4 tonne fully loaded with 300L fuel and loaded with tackle and gear for a days fishing.
10733993_754020171335936_1975513883478118393_n.jpg10422227_754020248002595_3907339836955928129_n.jpg

[mull dog]

Nice rig PB. What height would that be with the radar?


Sent from my lawnmower

[PB]

Nice rig PB. What height would that be with the radar?


Sent from my lawnmower

Cheers Mate,I think its about 3.2-3.3m

[Chris Tucker]

Dan that boat is a bit a-typical weight wise though. Extra beam and hull plates way beyond survey requirements and then the heavy duty steel trailer. Basically an exercise in how heavy we could design and build at 6.5m mono rig. What did the elite 700 weigh on its Ali trailer?