Boats build plate says Max persons = 6.
Max persons weight = 450kg
Max persons + luggage = 1000kg
Using MSQ chart says Max persons = 7.
Using MSQ formula says Max persons = over 7. (7.46 to be precise)
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Registration.aspx
Can I legally carry 7 in smooth waters if i'm not exceeding the max persons weight of 450kg on the build plate?
I'm sure something was documented about max persons irrelevant if max weight wasn't exceeded on here???
Cheers.
Kids who Hunt and Fish, Don't Deal and Steal.
Sorry, to my knowledge you have to follow your builders plate. It is most unusual for it to be less than the default, most that I have seen, normally they are one over.
My horizon is the same builders plate says 6 it should be 7.
MSQ guide is for older boats without a builders plate. It is a general guide used when someone has to put a capacity label on the boat.
What your builders plate says, is what you must stick to. No choice. Builders or boat designers make their assessment based on a much more comprehensive assessment than the guide, including the boats ability to float level with people onboard. This is not considered by the guide.
And, one suspects, for liability purposes, they will always make a conservative decision, because the person whose name is on the ABP as the competent person, is the one who bears responsibility.
Note to self: Don't argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience....
Interesting though the wording on the capacity label itself - " An alternative method of calculating your boats safe capacity is to use the boat manufacturers nominated safe persons capacity which is marked on the manufacturers plate or Australian Builders Plate attached to all new Boats".
This coupled with the explanation in the explanation document for ABP's stating that the maximum number of persons is an estimate because people don't all weigh the same - http://www.anzsbeg.com.au/files/6413...al_-_Jan11.pdf
means I suspect that if you fitted a capacity label as per MSQ, there is nothing they can do about it provided you have the required safety gear for all on board.
Of course, I am no lawyer so do with this information as you will at your own risk.
In WA the Builders Plate is a guide, you can carry more people assuming you have all the safety gear and DOT will not charge you.
However there is also liability if something goes wrong and a court case.
There may also be a clause in your insurance for this?
So?
What does the maximum persons capacity mean?
The maximum persons capacity is the recommended number of persons the boat can
safely carry, including their personal gear, based on mass. This number is
necessarily an estimate because human beings don’t all weigh the same. The
permissible technical standards used to calculate the maximum load capacity (the
Australian Standard, the US standard and the ISO standards used in Europe) all give
more or less the same results for a given boat. However, the standards each use
different masses for a typical person. Most standards express the result as the
number of adults the boat can safely carry, at 80kg per person in the case of the
Australian Standard. However, the US standard assumes a mix of adults and children
and comes up with an average mass of around 65kg.
And from the label -
Owners of boats over six metres can determine a boat’s safe person capacity by one of
the following methods:
1. Using the Capacity Assessment Table below
2. Using the manufacturer’s capacity rating, as shown on the manufacturer’s plate or
the Australian Builder’s Plate. If this information is not available you can contact
the manufacturer directly.
3. Using the formula at the bottom.
The table above covers boats up to 15 metres in length. If you boat is longer than 15
metres, a conservative capacity estimate can be obtained using the formula:
Safe persons capacity = 0.75 x length x beam
B
Doesn't say which one or that the abp overrules the others?
Kids who Hunt and Fish, Don't Deal and Steal.
Which is based on weight then converted into theoretical people which is why I asked -Originally Posted by Moonlighter
"Can I legally carry 7 in smooth waters if i'm not exceeding the max persons weight of 450kg on the build plate?"
Kids who Hunt and Fish, Don't Deal and Steal.
Just found this -
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/~/media/ms...ner_master.pdf
19. What advice should I follow if my Capacity Label and ABP have conflicting information?
The Capacity Label provides a persons capacity of a boat that does not take into account whether the
boat can support that number of persons if the boat is swamped. The Australian Builders Plate person
capacity for boats under 6 metres in length takes the capacity of the swamped boat into account. In
the event of an inconsistency between the Capacity Label and the ABP, always assume that the lower
capacity is the one to use. As a general rule, the Australian Builders Plate will provide information that
is based on a more comprehensive assessment. If in doubt, obtain clarification from the manufacturer
or the person who approved the information on the Australian Builders Plate.
23. What information does the plate give me about number of people that can be carried?
The plate provides both the maximum number of people that can be carried in the boat and the total
weight of those people. On some plates additional information regarding the loading may be provided
in a warning statement. This statement could cover matters such as reduced loading for fly bridges
and adverse conditions.
Note: Plates issued prior to 23 October 2009 will have persons capacity based on 75 kg per person.
More recent plates based on the newer edition are based on 80 kg per person.
What about boats over 6m?
Kids who Hunt and Fish, Don't Deal and Steal.
Mate, I am with Moonlighter on this. I would stick with the recommendation on your builder's plate. They are the manufacturer and have determined that that is what their vessel is capable of (in smooth waters and good conditions) and that is where they would see their liability resting if there was an incident. i would also think that insurance etc would look at things similarly. (ie Operating within Manufacturer's Instructions). Builder/manufacturer would have conducted stability tests for possibly 'standard/basic floatation' or maybe 'positive flotation' etc when determining this as well. I noted that the formula was for vessels over 15m only.
Don't forget that children under 12 are counted as 1/2 an adult. In theory... a tinny with capacity of 4 on builder's plate (in smooth waters and good conditions and where skipper considers it safe) could carry 7 (1 adult and 6 children under 12). Don't forget the numbers are reduced as conditions and operating areas (ie a move to partially smooth or open waters) occurs. Always remember, the Skipper/Master is responsible. Cheers Jackamundi
The "Capacity Label" issued by Qld Transport says each person is 90kg including gear and equipment, so that means a boat carrying 6 people can carry 540kg in total - I can remember in the 1970s when I worked for Ansett and the Fokker Friendships that flew Sydney to Casino would have trouble with thunderstorms/ fuel /weight so we had to weigh everyone who boarded the plane - the average then was 70kg per person (they were not happy Jan) - which means we may have gained weight since the 1970s
Don't see to many 70kg fishers these days....
Remember to always log on before heading offshore.
My take is that if you don't overload the boat then you have nothing to worry about but at some point you may have to prove the boat was not overloaded.
Ask the water police.
Another thing is seating/standing positions?
As I understand it, from my discussion just now with MSQ, the minute you exceed the stated capacity on the ABP, then you are potentially in breach of your "general safety obligation". And the ABP overrides any "capacity label" you might have stuck on there yourself.
They also told me there is no "on the spot ticket" for overloading, as such.
BUT...... They made it clear that:
If you exceed the designated ABP capacity, and something bad happens that could arguably relate in any way to the capacity of the vessel, it will then be up to YOU to prove to the Court that you were operating the boat safely loaded like you were. The onus to prove that you were operating safely shifts to you.
And, given that something bad actually happened, your argument is already pretty well sunk (pardon the pun!)
Note to self: Don't argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience....
That is always the case anyway. You are the master - you are responsible. The question is I guess, given that even the ABP is calculated using theoretical estimates, at what point does the vessel become overloaded. Is it when you have 6 on board or is it when the weight capacity is reached as far as the ABP is concerned. Given that most if not all of the states allow babies under 1 and children under 12 to be factored differently when it comes to their capacity label calculations there is already a precedent set. My thinking is that so long as you do not exceed the weight limit, you will be fine.
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