so any one on here with experience in building ally boats ? I am looking at building an ally kit boat. I have come across some great designs and have a family member who can get ally at a great price. what welders are you guys or pros using ?
pulse migs , standard migs, tigs , single phase , 3 phase ?
any help would be great im currently looking at a cig weld 320 amp twin pulse mig 3 phase. looks the beez knees but dunno if I need something that big.
Mate you need one that big.......it's all about duty cycle,if you have three phase you are laughing.
Foronius would be the pick IMO......then something in a Miller or Lincoln......All have a fantastic power source and everything is rebuildable.
If you only have single phase the choice gets much harder but there are good options......one I have used is the R/T pulse mig.....great little unit..best single phase machine I have used.
Alloy draws lots of amps as it is a good heat sink.....much more than mild steel........for instance I have a little Lincoln 180C which for what it is is ok but say i weld 3mm mild steel I run around 90-100 amps but for alloy it's more like 140-150amps just to get good fusion.......it's not pulse just strait AC...it's not inverter just good ol school transformer which means it will and does take a beating duty cycle wise but IMO much more hardy than a inverter welder of the same value.......it's fine for what I use it for but if I had something in a pulse I could do a lot more with it.
IMO look into a hire unit.......go a 3 month deal and you will get the benefits of using something decent without the 6-7K price tag.
Bye the way I would not buy anything CIG or BOC as I have seen too many go down in the workshop.
Dan
Confidence.......the feeling you get before you fully understand the situation.
Dan is right there....you will need high output to keep the heat flowing.
In addition, I would consider TIG for the smaller work like cabinets, hand rails etc. Oh..don't forget training and practice. When you get it right...more practice. Then tackle the boat.
Cheers..have fun.
Lembo, what thickness material you are using will help to work out what size welder you will require. As the other lads have stated you would be using the tig and mig process to do the job correctly. I use a old style CIG 400 amp mig power source with a 25ft push/pull Cobra matic wire feeder (old machine). If you are welding more than 3 mm thickness I would be going for 3 phase to get your duty cycle. I use a OTC 350 amp pluse tig with a 25ft water cooled torch. This is a single phase machine and draws 64 amps which you would not run from your house. I also have a little 3 in one single phase tig that runs on 15amps. Cost $2500 and does a pretty good job. Its AC/DC pulse with water cooled torch also. If you are going to do a fair amount with a tig you will need the water cooled torch or you will be burning out torch cables.
There are some great machines available but it all comes down to what you want to spend. If you have not done ally welding before your in for a wild ride. Built many boats and the welding can make or break it. The heat input and how you weld ally is un forgiving. If you have a mate that can weld ally get him around or pay someone to do the welding.
All the best with the project.
thanks for the info guys.
im looking at welding a plate boat so around the 5mm mark for max thickness. im an electrician so looks like I might be installing 3 phase. the pulse migs are getting my attention as they look like they produce great quality tig looking welds. im considering doing a welding course and also starting on cheaper projects like ute tray and canopy trailer mods and little various things. if I cant do them I will definitely not attempt the boat. just gaining info and knowledge to help aid my decision. as im sure it will test my wifes and neighbour patients. but the price I can get ally for will give me an extremely well priced boat.
thanks again guys.
Go for a minimum 350 amp pulsemig and a push pull torch.....torch alone will cost 1200
Plenty of good machines from europe about that offer great duty cycles.
I have a 500amp pulsmig that has 350 amps at 100% duty cycle with vairable pulse......lays a very good weld with no issues so far.
Selecting a machine that will just do the job is not good economy.....nothing is designed for that sort of pressure.
Jack.
If you have the money buy a Fronius and second would be the Migatronic, these will also have the best resale as they are the industry standard.
We run 300amp+ machines but would not hesitate to buy a Fronius TPS 270 for the same job as lots of boat builders run them; it’s also fully integrated with push pull as an option. Don’t bother with a single phase machine them won’t do the job.
The CIG machine is not that good I considered one but after looking into it they have had a lot of issues.
The rest of it is practice Ive been doing this for over 15 years and still learning the art that is aluminium welding, ive worked with some of the best tradys in the country that have been doing it 3 times as long as me and they all say they are still learning it’s just one of them metals.
What design are you looking at??
Have to disagree.Originally Posted by cwcarter
Jasic and T & R are Chinese rubbish.
No serious boat builder in Queensland uses one.
Some of the pressed boat builders use lower quality gear, but not that low (that I have seen).
All the dedicated plate boat builders use quality machines.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1418898832.672056.jpg
Cheers,
Owen
The whole world's mad save thee & me (but I'm not too sure about thee)
Very informative post there Owen.
There working perfect for myself and plenty of other DIY builders that Iv'e seen.
Of course in a production environment you would want something high end and you could afford one aswell.
The OP is building a kit boat for himself. Building a one off or 2 these single phase machines are great and will do it with ease. If you have excess to three phase then a kemppi kempact 3000 probably would be my next choice.
Most of the professional builders use Fronius Tranpuls 2700. For good reason. There used all day everyday. You pay for that industrial strength and quality though. But for the home builder who does a bit here and there the suggested welders plus many others will handle the task.
CW,
My post was indeed brief, but it was late and I was really going to stay out of it.
I've spent many years in the aluminium fabrication game and I've sold all brands for a lot of years. So I've used more different machines than most ever get the opportunity to.
I've also had the advantage of being in businesses that repair welders so I have seen what works and what doesn't .
An experienced welder can make do with a less than perfect machine and still get a reasonable result.
I used to build roll cages and fuel tanks for race cars with a "pie warmer" so I don't consider myself a technology snob.
Lembo is not that and what he'll learn at a short TAFE course won't make him anywhere near that.
It may surprise many to know that the majority of boilermakers struggle to pass their tests when full AS1665 standards are applied.
Usually it's things like porosity, crater cracks etc but none the less they fail.
So I'm a little bemused that many this forum will (rightly) rally around and decry boat builders who manufacture in China using sub standard equipment and unqualified people, but will encourage doing the same thing in someone back yard here.
The welders you recommend will indeed last the short time it takes to build the boat (probably).
Trouble is, the boat's going to last a bloody site longer than that.
And Lembo may not be the only owner.
Cheers,
Owen
The whole world's mad save thee & me (but I'm not too sure about thee)
So what I've gathered from that is your an experienced welder who doesn't like the inexperienced home welder building a boat?
I thought Owen was going say something along the lines of ...
an Experienced welder with average tools can get a Above average result, but
a Learner welder with average tools may get a Below average result.
Transire vinus forticulus
I neglected to say the second sentence but it was implicit.
I have no issue with anyone building a kit boat.
But....
I do think that a level of proficiency and or an inspection system aimed at the structural integrity should be demonstrated before the boat can be registered.
After all, somewhere between 1 & 6 people's lives may depend on it.
I'm pretty conversant with electronics. Yet I can't rewire my shed.
Nor can I build a shed without certain inspections.
All of the advice given above bar one post (IMO) was reasonable for this application.
I don't rate ANY Chinese made welders as suitable, including those from WIA, Lincoln and others.
Lembo would be better off hiring or buying a second hand unit.
Cheers,
Owen
The whole world's mad save thee & me (but I'm not too sure about thee)
Hi Lembo,
CWCarter posted a link to the build i did(7.5m plate alloy cat). If you want any information send me a PM.
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