Can someone please explain to me the point of the OP?
What has a helicopter crash got to do with "2. Main purpose for this post is more towards the "she'll be right boatie types" who think they know it all yet in reality really don't properly understand or can operate the equipment they are using."? That's a giant leap of (il)logic from one to the other and I'm just a dumb chippy who likes to fish.
Are you having a go at boties or gps's or mars bars?
Re: Another GPS Attributed Fatality - Unfortunately
thanks for thinking of me MT
I think Satnav is suggesting helicopters should be banned in SA
In terms of the cause of the crash, from a pilots perspective, there are a number of conclusions by the ATSB that I don't buy into. I am not here to slam SatNav, but his simple OP massively over-simplifies the cause of the crash.
It was dark and the pilot could not see the horizon. Big deal. The pilot was rated for IFR and night operation. Therefore, the pilot should have been relying on his instruments for reference - artificial horizon, altimeter, turn indicator and compass, etc. It is common for pilots, even experienced ones, to become disoriented, especially in cloud, because they do not read their basic instruments. GPS's have bred laziness into the industry, as it has in bushwalking, boating, etc; and people just seem to lose the plot when the GPS is not working or telling them the wrong thing. They take what the GPS is telling them as gospel and ignore everything else.
All that said, the pilot in question; Gary Ticehurst, was one of THE best chopper pilots in Australia - PERIOD. Does that make him infallible? Absolutely not!
Punching in a new waypoint, destination, etc, whilst flying is no big deal for a pilot unless they are a total beginner. It is a matter of course and part or normal flight procedures.
The statement: ""When you're in central Australia after dark and there's no moon, you can't see the horizon. You might get a little glimmer from the stars, but probably your instrument lights from your aircraft are going to drown that out anyway. There's the quite serious possibility that you can quite progressively be leaning over and not actually detect that's the case."
Refers to, without being able to accurately see the horizon, you cannot tell whether you are flying straight and level. Anyone flying without being able to see the horizon OR without an artificial horizon, will roll an aircraft to one side or the other - this is more apparent in a chopper because you do not have the dihedral effect of wings, which actually keeps the plane flying level due to simple physics. In a chopper, you will reach a critical tilt point where it will just roll on its back and that is generally unrecoverable. Watch your basics instruments and this will not happen.
The ATSB go on to say: "Rather than relying on external reference visual points visually ... this is a flight that's required to be flown based on the instruments in the aircraft, and therefore the flight crew need to be trained in using those instruments to fly the aircraft without external reference."
Gary was a chopper pilot with nearly 30yrs under his belt and was on his way to 20,000 (yes, twenty thousand!) flying hours. He was an ex-Army chopper pilot and the level of instrument flight training you get in there makes the Civil aviation sector look like a backyard hobby/enthusiasts group. And not just the training, as an Army chopper pilot, you actually have to use your instruments all the time. When Gary was in the Army, they didn't have GPS anyway and living off your instruments is a hard habit to break if you have not been brought up on GPS.
It wouldn't be the first time the ATSB got it wrong and it won't be the last. Writing of the cause of a crash as 'a distraction of some sort' is a very broad brush. It is the same way the police often write off accident with 'speed' as the cause - it is often a factor, but not the cause. As a result, statistics get greatly skewed from the truth and a false trend is created.
Ben.
Last edited by morphias; 17-11-2013 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Fixed some typos
Well said Morphias!
Jim
GPS has been blamed for errors in Kiwiland as well.....
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...se-in-GPS-goof
Re: Another GPS Attributed Fatality - Unfortunately
disgusting FB , kiwis should BE BANNED FROM THE NRL World Cup
Thks Bro'
No we need them for bashing the French and English teams.
Now you are SUMMISING....hmmmmmm......even BETTER than the AUTHORITIES...Originally Posted by SatNav
Maybe YOU should be running the investigation........
PLEASE...keep us updated at to YOUR personal and "AT the scene results"....
Thanks, Ray.
Soleman,
Go take a hike! (without a GPS)
I hope he can find his way back without a GPS!
It appears according to these incidents that not only are GPS units responsible but also something called sat nav .....
http://www.gpsbites.com/top-10-list-...t-nav-mistakes
Remember to always log on before heading offshore.
That's all very good Ozynorts but only a band aid solution to the existing philosophy that AusFishers require continuous updates on general gps concern.
1. The point was even the best of us can make mistakes but it is good to see by their own admissions that some Ausfishers believe they are perfect besides their own selective way of thinking with regard incidents such as this.
2. The aircraft bit is/was really irrelvent but yes of course many conveniently blaze away on this point having totally missed the point. But maybe an old flying saying fits with some here, you crash at 500 hours when you think you know everything and you will crash at 15,000 hours when you do know everything. So are you a thinker or a knower
How many people here actually use their GPS for navigation? I certainly do not. I use it generally to get me on the mark I want to fish or to mark areas of interest while fishing.
General Navigation is generally by sight or if at night or out of sight of land by the use of compass or 'Spatial Awareness'.
Occasionally I will have a look at the GPS Screen to see that I'm heading in the general direction.... This boat I have had for the last 6 months is the only boat I have had a GPS with a chart all previous GPS's have had a Plot screen only.
I think it dulls the senses to a certain degree if you rely solely on the GPS to navigate. Wonder what would happen to some people if there GPS died while fishing out of sight of land??
The points you made, and I quote:1. The point was even the best of us can make mistakes but it is good to see by their own admissions that some Ausfishers believe they are perfect besides their own selective way of thinking with regard incidents such as this.
2. The aircraft bit is/was really irrelvent but yes of course many conveniently blaze away on this point having totally missed the point. But maybe an old flying saying fits with some here, you crash at 500 hours when you think you know everything and you will crash at 15,000 hours when you do know everything. So are you a thinker or a knower
"another GPS related accident to add to the ever growing list of fatalities incorrect GPS use attributed to the crash"
You went further to say that:
"the spatial disorientation was primarily due to the GPS being incorrectly programmed with the incident occurring probably while trying to re-program the GPS"
and:
"Main purpose for this post is more towards the "she'll be right boatie types" who think they know it all yet in reality really don't properly understand or can operate the equipment they are using"
The 'points' on the crash are assumptions and speculation and the 'main purpose' is largely disconnected and irrelevant in the context you have used. The POINT you clearly made is that incorrect GPS usage causes fatalities - you did not make the point that everyone makes mistakes.
My point is that the example you have used to demonstrate your point was poor as it does not carry sufficient factual information and evidence to make it a valid one.
Ben.
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