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Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ?? - Page 5
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Thread: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

  1. #61

    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Never said I knew anything about anything, but I also don't see what that link has to do with herding salmon into a hole in a breakwater.

  2. #62

    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Noelm View Post
    Popcorn, get your popcorn! This should be good for at least 5pages.
    a bit of ESP here

    a lot of interesting info on this thread and as ever there are many and varied views, loved reading it all and agree/disagree with all of it

  3. #63

    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Yep agree, it is good to get different views right or wrong, it helps to read how we all think things should be managed, and how methods are perceived to work.

  4. #64

    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Noelm View Post
    Never said I knew anything about anything, but I also don't see what that link has to do with herding salmon into a hole in a breakwater.
    Thats the thing Noel.. In my home town of Narooma where my family goes back 4 generations this is just common knowledge that the little hole in the breakwater was where the salmon used to get herded into.. there is even still the old timber frame (or was a few years ago) that was the framework to shut the "door" once the fish where inside the lagoon. What motive would i have to make this up?
    dont knock on deaths door... ring the doorbell and run... death hates that!!

  5. #65
    Ausfish Platinum Member mattooty's Avatar
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    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Slider View Post
    ....
    It would appear that economic forces were a driving factor behind the ban, but gave the Minister at the time an opportunity to look good to the rec community without ruffling the feathers of commercials.
    .
    And herein lies the problem with your credibility (or lack thereof).... "It would appear..." You might as well say "I'm going to use anything to suit my agenda". Emotive arguments win nothing but tears unfortunately.

  6. #66
    Ausfish Platinum Member
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    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    I comfortably stand by the comment.

    The species was no longer targeted by the commercial sector because there was no market for them and new markets couldn't be found. Catches went from 1300 tonnes in '96/'97 to averaging around 200 tonnes in the following 3 years to 2000 while new markets were sought, but not attained. Netting north of Barrenjoey headland was banned in 2001 - "there was no research, no statistical analysis and no consultation with commercial or recreational fishers". There was no concern about their sustainability as was given as a reason for the ban on tailor netting.

    Rec fishing havens were established in 2001 which obviously wasn't sought by commercial fishers and was a huge win for recreational fishing - but they had to pay for it out of their own pockets. As has been demonstrated, the ban can easily be overturned, so unless Mr Obeid banned salmon netting out of the goodness of his heart as some cream on the cake for rec fishers, then what reason other than the lack of a market would you care to suggest Mattooty? In my experience, rec fishing has to fight every inch to get anything at all from government and gifts such as this seriously fly in the face of history.

    As to the accusation that "I am going to use anything to suit my agenda" - your own credibility in making statements such as zoning of commercial licences in Qld is such that the accusation is easily ignored. I asked for people to find holes in my assertions and this is the best you can come up with - you'll need to do much better than that and I very much welcome any attempts to do so. Perhaps your links to the commercial sector are preventing an open minded approach - I can't imagine why you'd fire up so easily over attempts to improve recreational fishing otherwise.

  7. #67
    Ausfish Silver Member
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    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    " - I can't imagine why you'd fire up so easily over attempts to improve recreational fishing otherwise."

    It just doesn't make any sense at all does it slider.. I just cant understand why anyone one here would be putting up an argument for the sustainability of beach netting or netting of any description of schooling spawning fish.... From a rec fishing perspective that is??

  8. #68

    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    so... then ALL the fish belong to us recs? is that what you are saying?

  9. #69
    Ausfish Platinum Member
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    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Or from a commercial fishing perspective lbger. When the pros are telling me, of all people, that they agree that the current beach netting arrangements in this region aren't sustainable, then there is clearly a problem and one that they want to see addressed.

    When NSW catch data shows an improvement in inshore yields of key target species despite 300 less licences and 30 less locations to net, then there are clearly advantages to the commercial sector in protecting species by reducing commercial fishing pressure and closing regions to nets.

    When NSW DPI find that the number and size of fish increased dramatically in rec fishing havens after establishment which boosts participation rates and tourism with subsequent economic returns to the state, then clearly the advantages of net free regions to both rec and pro cannot be disputed. Seems like a no brainer.

    Of course, for Qld to have net free regions, there are costs associated with buy backs - costs that would be recouped via tourism and increased local participation rates and the long term viability of the commercial sector. But how are these costs of buy backs to be met when gov have already allocated their $9 mil - none of which is going towards beach hauling?

  10. #70

    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    I am not 100% sure a "net free" zone has that much effect, (don't say it doesn't either at times) near me there is an estuary that has not been pro/net fished for more than 50 years, (Minnamurra) yet it fishes no better than one close by that has pros working in it day and night! why?? have no idea, but I fish both places all the time, and neither is better than the other.

  11. #71
    Ausfish Platinum Member
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    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Whoo up - you can't have it both ways Noelm. You can't discount others' observations as being embellished and expect us to accept your observations as being fact. I'm quoting NSW DPI own findings in to the changes in NSW recreational fishing havens. These findings, while being perfectly logical and expected, show that net free regions benefit recreational fishing. No opinion or embellishment - direct and indesputable scientific evidence. So I can only treat your last post with the contempt that you have treated others'.

    However, in saying that - which is really just making a point that I felt needed to be made - not all net free regions are going to achieve the results that were found to occur in the assessed RFHs. If the net free zone is too small, or doesn't consider specie's breeding/feeding dynamics, then it may well fail to achieve anything for the fishery. The reality was that the NSW RFHs weren't established on the back of any specific science, but were established to appease the rec sector who provided funding for the RFHs. The recs wouldn't necessarily know that netting all around the RFH may not permit increased abundance and individual fish size, but they are appeased nevertheless. As I've said before - I think with an increased scientific awareness of how fish behaviour is of critical importance to fishery management, that the results could have been much better. Irrespective, the results speak for themselves, even if it was a little by accident.

  12. #72

    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Didn't embellish anything really, I fish both places personally (not heard from a bloke) and neither place is better than the other, in fact (and again I have no idea why) for crabbing, the none netted system yields bugger all, yet the pro fished system will see you get your bag limit easy, and thousands of recs do, every year, AND it is fished by pros for crabs, how the hell does that work?

  13. #73
    Ausfish Platinum Member
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    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Potentially because the area designated as a RFH is simply less productive and always has been for reasons that have nothing to do with fishing pressure.That is, of course, if we believe your account of what is actually happening there.

    The bream disappeared from here immediately after a large haul in the early 80s - how the hell does that work? Nobody can catch fish for a week after a beach or river haul - how the hell does that work? I see fish fleeing in all directions after hauls 20kms away multiple times - how the hell does that work? I see spotted mackerel and tuna sound the very instant that mullet in a beach net start to panic - how the hell does that work? I see mullet and other species bolting into the reeds and under the jetty I'm standing on at exactly the same time as a net is shot in Lake Cootharaba - how the hell does that work? Australian salmon boom in numbers after their netting is banned but rec pressure is the same - how the hell does that work? Rec fishing in the Hinchinbrook Channel improved dramatically after net bans for dugong protection - how the hell does that work? Rec and commercial fishing in the Southern Californian Bight improved and 4 overfished species pops recovered following net bans - how the hell does that work? The fish inside the assessed RFHs are bigger and there's more of them - how the hell does that work? Yields of all species other than mullet in June & July in Cooloola/Fraser Is are lowest despite the highest number of netters present - how the hell does that work? Tern counts drop during June and July but bounce up again afterwards - how the hell does that work? The scientific studies into chemical alarm signals consistently show area avoidance and anti-predator responses by fish to the schreckstoff samples placed in a location - how the hell does that work? Species that are determined to be overfished are consistently found to be attaining a smaller size at age and within 5 generations in experiments - how the hell does that work? Fish have consistently been found to recognise the sound of trawlers and flee - how the hell does that work? Tailor are deemed to be taking a more offshore migratory path in response to inshore fishing pressure - how the hell does that work? Hatchery reared Atlantic salmon fingerlings can be trained to avoid wild predators using chemical cues - how the hell does that work?

    Noelm - these examples are off the top of my head and I could keep going off the top of my head. If I was to start quoting examples from the mountain of scientific papers I have, then I'd be filling the next couple of pages here. I know what I'm talking about and nobody has yet been able to seriously question any of it. The truth of the matter is that if you understood the predator - prey relationships that exist in all animals, then it would be startling if the things that I'm saying occur, didn't occur.

  14. #74
    Ausfish Platinum Member
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    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    Now for the inshore snapper fishers -

    I mentioned above the spotted mackerel and tuna that sounded at the very moment that mullet inside a beach net began to panic which was indicated by their suddenly leaping out of the water - I'm sure plenty of you have seen mullet panicking in nets before. I've seen this with macks and/or tuna a few times but it is rare to have macks or tuna present at the same time as mullet netting.
    On this particularly calm morning that stands out in my memory, there were a lot of schools of macks and tuna feeding within eyesight of the position I had on top of the dunes. Every school, and I mean every fish in every school, instantly disappeared when the mullet started leaping and they didn't reappear for the rest of the season apart from a few small schools of mac tuna about a week later. It was later reported to me by a pro wormer that he noticed a sudden disappearance of the macks and tuna at about the same time in the morning some 45kms north near Double Island Point. Related or not, it seems coincidental and especially when I've seen tailor fleeing nets that are 20kms away.

    Mullet are known vocalisers - they drum muscles against their swim bladder which amplifies the sound and which can be heard through hydrophones and by other mullet and other species. Such alarm vocalisations as would be produced by alarmed mullet in a net would alert all other species to the presence of a predator - or a net in this instance - a fish's ultimate predator.

    So if mackerel and tuna are spooked by mullet nets as quite obviously occurred on this day, then one would think that snapper would also be spooked as they have very good hearing which is indicated by the size of their otolith.

    Having watched the reports on here, and listened to mates reports of snapper and whiting seemingly dry up over the last couple of weeks at places like Mud Island etc - apart from the odd fish, the question has to be asked - are mullet nets affecting recreational catches of snapper?

    I'm not saying that they definitely are, but this seems to happen each year and at a time when we'd expect to see increasing snapper catches inshore as the snapper move in to shallower waters to spawn. If, and I'm saying if, this is the case, then it stands to reason that snapper spawning is potentially being interrupted and recruitment negatively affected. And if this is happening to snapper, what other species might be affected?

    Before the nay sayers jump all over me with accusations of long bows being drawn, please provide reasons as to why it wouldn't be happening. As I say, I don't know for sure that it is, but it's food for thought.

  15. #75
    Ausfish Platinum Member
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    Re: Netters @ Kings Beach Today 15-06-2013. ??

    I can imagine that there would be some spooking skeptics out there and I certainly don't blame anyone for being skeptical if they haven't done the research I've done and seen the things I've seen. Everyone knows I want net free regions and that I'm doing absolutely everything I can to create an environment whereby they can become a reality for Qld. So a skeptic would assess that I will use any tool, legitimate or otherwise to achieve the objective. I can make any number of assurances that my ethics and principles are such that the use of illegitimate information isn't used, and this is the case, but that in reality carries no weight whatsoever - of course. The fact that I could easily be exposed if I was to use illegitimate means and my credibility be shot for eternity is constantly in the back of my mind and a factor in how I go about things. I do not want that to happen.

    But here's the thing - it can be proven, or very close to proven and it would cost nothing other than somebody's time. And here's how -

    I purchased a while back a heap of commercial catch data from FQ for fishery grids W32, W34 & W35. Initially it was all annual data so I could see catch trends from '88 to 2011. Then I purchased monthly data with the aim of comparing tailor, spotted macks and spanish macks to tern data which is compiled monthly - and the results were precisely as I anticipated they'd be. I thought that maybe the monthly data would also allow me to assess spooking. For example - if there's a mullet haul in W35 in June of a given year, are there hauls of any other species in that same month in W35? However, there are limitations as to how precise an assessment of this can be carried out with the monthly data because a haul of tailor (for eg) can occur the day or week before a haul of mullet and both hauls will show up under the same month. Or a haul of tailor can be taken at the end of July when the last haul of mullet was taken at the beginning of July and their spooking influence long worn off - but they'll be included in the same month's data. Another limitation occurs if a month's data of a given species was taken by 5 boats or less, then that data is confidential and can't be supplied. Irrespective and despite the limitations and following a very large amount of detective type investigating, I found that there rarely, if ever, are hauls of open water species taken in the same month and same grid as other hauls of open water species or mullet. How curious.

    But no such limitations exist if you work for FQ and have unfettered access to catch data.

    Catch data can come in the form of shot data - the precise date that the haul took place and the grid within which it was taken. There'd be no point my purchasing this data as the 5 boat or less confidentiality would mean that I'd probably receive less than 10% of daily data and it would probably only consist of mullet catches by the teamed up netters who divide each catch between 9 licences.

    So here's the challenge for FQ - and I know Matt and Jonno are reading this and have access to the data - why not go through the exercise of assessing shot data and seeing when and where each shot occurs? I'll guarantee that there's at least a week between hauls in the same fishery grid. That doesn't include mullet because they can exit the estuaries to spawn on any day irrespective of what shots have occurred on the open beach, but recs don't chase mullet anyway. There'd be the odd bream haul also because they too exit the estuaries to spawn, but they would be few and far between in the same week as other shots. All other species won't be taken within the week following a haul of any other species - I'd stake my reputation on that.

    There's another disclaimer though - a small haul of say less than 1 tonne of any species may not cause a large area avoidance and especially if there is a large food resource available. Risk assesment by the fish might mean that the area avoidance is very short or for a very small distance from the small haul and subsequent hauls within a week in the same grid can be possible. I'd just ask that the assessment, if carried out, be reasonable and consider that fish behaviour is not like a mechanical device and be replicated identically on all occasions. But you would be aware of that fact.

    This can be taken a step further if things line up the way I expect they would. All species in all grids can be assessed using this method to see whether spooking is a reality. But I already know that FQ know that spooking is a reality because Tony Ham told me that it has been observed in relation to australian salmon. Sorry Tony, but it's past time that FQ started to understand what's happening in the fisheries that you manage.

    So what do you think Matt, Jonno? Worth the effort I would have thought. Unless, that is, FQ would prefer that we don't find out about these things.

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