Juvenile saddle tail here everywhere . Specially around the shallow wreaks and shallow reef structures in cap coast .
http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/28_8995.htm
Jt
Juvenile saddle tail here everywhere . Specially around the shallow wreaks and shallow reef structures in cap coast .
http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/28_8995.htm
Jt
VHF CHANNEL 21
CALL SIGN : JT OR SC552(social club member)
There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot
I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges
Up here we Use Hussar as baits for real RED FISHS (SHSIIFDER)
Yep really good info, glad they have fisheries officers heyOriginally Posted by banksmister
Below is an email return I've had so far from Fisheries Cairns. I'm sending him the google search web sites put up on here indicating the occurrence of Indo Snapper only in north Western Australia. It would be strange for CSIRO to get this wrong? Like if they are on the east coast and as supposedly common, how come no recorded occurrence there?
Hi John
I have attached a photo of the juvenile large mouth, notice the similiarities of the striping and band on the head. I can't see the band on the tail tho, but it could very well be this fish. I have googled the Indonesian snapper (which will have a min size of 25cm) and the photos I have seen don't show the striping along the fish but that is not conclusive.
If you have any more photos of the whole fish I may be able to do a better scientific analysis.
I will contact our research section to see if they have any better photos than on the internet, as well.
Sorry for the late reply as I have been away. Until then, I would err on the side of caution and consider those fish to be a large mouth (40cm min size) in the interim. Cheers.
Darren Soda
Field Officer
Queensland Boating and Fisheries Patrol
Fisheries Queensland / Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry
Ph 07 40350700 Fax 07 40351603 Mob 0417735991
100-106 Tingira Street Portsmith
PO Box 7453 Cairns 4870
Business Information Centre 13 25 23
www.daff.qld.gov.au
"let not he boast who puts his armor on, as he who takes it off"
I know this is an old thread but this post might "bump it" and shed new light on something about to become topical again as these "noxious" fish are spreading like wildfire in the Whitsundays. A better image will follow of the fish that does not really exist and yet is protected by a 5 fish bag limit...what next, a bag limit on carp or tilapia? Will also follow this post with a bit of background and I will post some photos of the fish when I figure out how.
Indonesian Invasion
Indonesian Snapper,( lutjanus bitaeniatus). CSIRO and various official web information have this fish native to areas off Sumatra and Sulawesi with a small population off Kuri Bay in WA and a few pockets north off Darwin. It is not native to Qld. So,what’s the news in this? It is the fact that these fish are virtually infesting most of the southern Whitsunday region in massive numbers, dominating many of the recognised rubble grounds to a point where you can’t get a bait to the bottom to target Reds as double hook-ups on these fish are almost instant. The issue with these fish is they are small, reaching a max of around 40 cm, but usually caught in the 25 to 35cm range, they are great to eat, but, have been caught up in fisheries regulations as a lutjanid species under a broad definition of“tropical snappers” with a subsequent bag limit of 5 fish. The available scientific literature is of a fish with frightening fast population growth,(unusual in a Lutjanid species which are mostly very slow growing) identifying a doubling of population in LESS THAN 15 MONTHS. Despite a head in the sand attitude from Qld fisheries senior management, who prefer to doubt the existence of these fish, they are here,they are quickly getting out of control and they are being protected by a bag limit. What next, a bag limit on Tilapia or carp? This species is, according to the CSIRO literature, a fish found solitary or in small schools and inhabits waters from 40 to 60 meters. WRONG. It is present in massive schools, almost blacking out sounders and in waters from 5 to 80 meters. Qld Fisheries excuse for maintaining a bag limit is that these are too hard to easily identify from other “tropical snappers”, particularly large mouth nannygai. WRONG again, and typical of professional bureaucrats who may be great at writing rules but knownothing about fish and fishing. The difference is very obvious. No saddle near tail, black tail and white tipped caudal fin. What is it with these guys? Here you have a species which would be a desirable recreational species, if you could catch enough to generate a decent feed, have little or no commercial value, or interest, and are breeding and spreading distribution at alarming rates and clearly displacing native species.
First formally identified in the Whitsundays in 1994 by a single specimen sent to the WA and again in 2010 by JCU marine researchers, it has become apparent to Whitsunday fishos that the last few years they have exploded in population. Historically restricted to a few pockets around Long Island they were a popular local target, with no bag limit and an easy feed. The 5 fish bag limit, coupled with 2 monster wets over the last 2 years seem to have combined to cause a population explosion, akin to what the literature indicates which provides for a doubling of population every 15 months (or less) and the fish are now showing up everywhere. How long before these things dominate the entire Great Barrier Reef? Recreational fishers are about the only possible means to slow these things down, even if only while the boffins come to terms with what to do. Not only is this cost free to Government, it could even add value to fishing tourism and the diet/lifestyle of locals and visitors alike as a great, easy, bread and butter fishery.But, typical of bureaucracy, Qld Fisheries Management is holding the line that these things don’t really exist, or are not really a problem. I have personally had direct contact with the Minister’s office, GBRMPA, boating and fisheries and fisheries field and research operators, the vast majority of whom agree this should be an open fishery and actively encouraged. If Qld fisheries management continue with their head in the sand approach and continue to protect these fish there is a very real threat to the biodiversity of fishstock on the GBR.A recent sounding in an inshore local green zone confirmed an obvious expectation. The purported rational for green zones was to protect biodiversity and fish stocks. This particular area, where I risked a heavy fine by dropping down a bait to confirm identity of the huge schools showing on the sounder, is wall to wall Indo’s.And it is just the tip of a very large, fast growing iceberg. We have been told to trust the new LNP Government would remove stupid green tape and regulations which either do not make sense, or, in this case, appear plain straight outdumb.
The major rational, as relayed by senior fisheries managers to the Ministers office is this. “The fish (if they really exist, or exist innumbers) are too hard to identify from other lutjanid/tropical snappers so anglers will be encouraged to exceed bag limits on tropical snapper species if an open fishery was declared on Indonesian Snapper.” With respect, what a loadof crap!.
Below is the photo and here are the “Lutjanids/ tropicalsnappers” targeted by recreational anglers.
Large Mouth Nannygai (Saddle Tail Sea Perch/snapper)
Small Mouth Nannygai (Crimson Snapper)
Fingermark (Golden Snapper)
Red Emperor
Mangrove Jack
Spanish Flag (Stripy Bass/ Stripy)( Lesser degree by catch)
Moses Perch ( Lesser degree by catch)
Hussar ( Lesser degree by catch)
Note attached a clear high res image (and attachment) for clearidentification.
1.This is about as big as they get and YES, itlooks a bit like ajuvenile Large Mouth Nannygai (Saddle Tail Sea Perch) but little at all like ajuvenile small mouth Nannygai(Crimson Snapper)…………It looks NOTHING like anyother Lutjanid
2.Underslung Lower Jaw (Saddle tail is prominentlower jaw) and jack like canine teeth.
3.Note no “Saddle” markings at the upper base ofthe tail.
4.Black tail (saddle Tail have clear to pink)
5.The easy to spot “smoking gun” White tips on thecaudal fin ,(zoom in where fin tips extend on fingers) hence a common name ofwhite tip snapper.
6.While I would say anyone can see the difference,clearly senior fisheries managers are not just your average “anyone”. What’sold saying? If you build something idiot proof, they just build a better idiot.
trying to upload a more pics but having some griefindos.jpg
Is this all a result of ships picking up water as ballast in other ports and dumping it in our ports with which invasive species can be introduced via viable eggs or even live fish. I wonder where it will all end, globalization may mean something different to what it was originally coined as.
KC, thanks for the info. But I think the photo you posted is not the same species as the original posters photo. Two separate species. The original posters photo is a juvenile nanny. I'm not saying the fish you posted is not what you say but it's not what this thread was originally asking.
Hi Si,
the photo originally posted is IMO and Indo. They are darker when they are small, and or caught in shallow water, I would even venture the guy caught that fish at Funnel Bay or Shute harbour in relatively shallow water. I am going to post some more pics which will open a few eyes as to how prolific and IMO potentially dangerous these things are and how wrong the supposed science is. Science which says these things hang out as solitary or in small schools and in 40 to 80 meters of water. Where, from my observation the thing they have got right is the frighteningly fast growth and reproduction rates. I have a few drams posting images but will head each one with a bit of a description.
indo 40.jpgindo 40.jpgAbout as big as they getindo 40 red.jpgindo 40 red.jpgindo 40 red.jpgsame size fish with different colours. both came from 310 foot of water
indos under macks.jpgindos in 300 foot closeup.jpg The blue "fuzz" below the school of Macks from 120 foot down is all indos, then out into 310 foot of water just masses of themindos in 300 foot zoom.jpg
This use to be prime Red and Nannygai country. How do you recon you would go getting a bait past that lot...3 drops, bagged out and what? go home! These things IMO should not be protected by a bag limit, they should allow heavy recreational pressure to see if they can be slowed down. At 40 cm they are 1.5 kg and really good eating by the way!
christmas tree.jpgjuvenile large mouth.jpg Bit more for Si. Image of an "indo" which very closely resembles the poor quality image which started this interesting thread. Notice it looks like it has a dark area near the "saddle" but just the way light is being reflected and also an official image of a juvenile (albeit very juvenile) saddle tail sea perch AKA Large Mouth Nannygai.
I have really high res images and would bet my left nut on the identity of the original posting as an "indo" and concur with the fisheries guys comments early on. The prominent lateral lines or stripes on the official saddletail image are also present on indos, particularly the little ones just as they are captured but do fade to an even colour after death, they are easy to see on this image in high res, maybe a little harder here. Also notice the dark top of head extending over the eye on the indo. I'm prepared to cop an argument that the original photo has led to confusion but as someone said, once seen side by side it is a "no brainer" yet fisheries management would have us believe they are a) too hard to tell apart. b) don't actually exist, or if so not in numbers c) represent no threat and d)need to be protected by a 5 fish bag limit.
Anyhow, one of the more interesting "what fish is this" threads for a long time.
kc
cropped indo.jpgsmall largemouth (2).jpg
Left and "indo"...right a confirmed small saddletail. Differences and compare to original post photo.
Indo darker red with colouration on face right down to base of cheek with very white under "throat"...VERY important is dark red fins (the ones under the chest?? whatever they are called) and they can look dark towards upper tail "wrist" in certain light.
Saddletail, generally much pailer in colour, particularly when alive and lower cheek area typically silverish. The fins under chest are clear to yellowish, not red...which I think is a dead give away, also lower jaw is always prominent on saddletail and underslung on indos.
As you may have guessed I have been on a bit of a crusade about these and some media is getting interested. I know of a "indos" being found off Lucinda in relatively small numbers but would be fascinated to hear if they are anywhere else. If there is one thing which gives unequivocal proof of what species it is it is the following image...now that I have learnt how to crop, blow up and post =)
indo white tip.jpg
The absolute smoking gun. The white tips on the caudial fin. If anyone outside the Whitsundays is catching these, please drop me an email. kc@whitsunday.net.au
As much as original photo is a poor one so you can never really say with 100% certainty (IMO), my bet is still on the Large Mouth Nannygai. KC in none of those photos did I see a distinct dark band across the face from the front of the dorsal fin through the eye. That very small juvenile photo of a Largie has it and so does the original pic. I don't see that in the photos of the Indonesian Snapper you put up. If I caught any of those fish I would not confuse it as a Nanny.
Totally believe you the Indo exists where you say and it is a real problem but I'm still not convinced that original post is one.
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