Glass-like epoxy

[benno_r]

Good day fellow rod builders...

Just putting the finishing touches on another 4 rods, and still haven't been able to master the "glass like finish". Where it is noticeable is over decals, and over long runs of dragon scale etc.

When I look at mine under bright light, I can see the very slight "waves" in the finish. I spend a lot of time smoothing sags, but can't seem to get it perfect in the end.

Can someone point me in the direction of youtube videos, online tutorials, advise on how to tidy up this part of my building?

Cheers,
Ben

[tunaticer]

12 hours of slow rotation in the drying, every 30 mins in the first two hours use a hair dryer or similar to warm the epoxy as it turns and it will self level nicely.
I use a BBQ rotisserie motor with a chuck mounted to it for drying.

[Mark Fisher]

Ben we all have very slight waves over some wraps. Most of my wraps are super smooth but usualyl that is over a closed wrap where all the surfaces are at the same level. With a Dragon Scale,l like the one I posted yesterday, there are 3 layers of thread - the dragon wrap base, the metallic second wrap and then the third layer of the cross wrap. These are super hard to get perfect as there are 2 different levels of wrap. There are sometimes other issues which can cause waves such as applying too much finish first up. I like to use a light coat first over everything, butt wrap and guide wraps. The second coat can be a little heavier but don't overload it because you will get a wavey finish. I know Stuart only puts on multiple layers of very light coats. This is by far the best method if you have time (and patience).

Regards
Mark

[Stuart]

Coating dramas, the vain of my existence. I will be the first to admit it took me over ten years to master coating to where it is today. Even after 20 years of building rods I still screw one or two up and every now and then.
It happens to the best of us and it’s unfortunately one of those things. I will give you one small bit of advice, the more you screw with epoxy once on the rod the more trouble you will have. Keep adding heat and the faster it will set meaning the more trouble you will have.
In having said that every epoxy has its own intricacies. You would think epoxy is all the same but nothing is farther from the truth. I have forgotten how many different brands I have used over the years and every one I had to work out how it wanted to be dealt with. The light rods I do cxan take up to 7 coats and the heavy rods like chair rods can take upwards of 10 coats to get that wet flowing look.
If epoxy had a sex then it would have to be female. No matter how hard you work on it it will always screw you in the end. E ach brand is different just like woman so if you go into that b rand thinking it will be the same as the last one then it will bit you on the arse, just like woman do. Anyway enough of bagging woman, even though they do deserve it. You can by thick coatings…crap and thin coatings…good. High build…crap. Steer clear of anything that says thick or high build. Always reach for thin or low build stuff or a brand that doesn’t sell it as anything other than epoxy.

As mark said waviness is one of those things that epoxy throws our way just to piss us off. It can be many things from your pattern to the amount you have applied to the tools you use to apply it. Many or in fact most use brushes, I don’t use them and haven’t done for years. Don’t ask what I use because I won’t tell you, I have to keep some things to myself. The problem with brushes is you apply the coating and then when you move it across the surface to flatten it out you also remove quite a lot. The other side effect to brushes is when dragged across the coating you are parting the coating to either side of the brush… if that makes sense. One trick when using epoxy and a brush is to apply the coating then very very lightly run the brush over the top of the coating to flatten it out. This helps to level the coating very nicely. Where many go wrong is they apply the coating then they try and push it around using a heavy hand, this then causes problems which then only become worse with every other layer of epoxy. Here is what I do. I begin by using heaps of coating to soke right in to all the threads. Once the bubbles have finished fizzing up I hit it with a flame very quickly. I then take all the excess coating off and through it away. Let that turn for a day then apply thin coats every 6 to 8 hours or there about’s. There is no hard and fast rule as to how to apply coating, it’s something you can only learn by doing. Sure you can learn techniques but again its all about watching how the epoxy reacts and then adjusting your technique to suite it. Often people go wrong by trying to make or force the coating to do things it can’t or shouldn’t do, but you can manipulate it if you do it in stages. Hope that helps.

[Owen]

There's some good advise above.
Probably the key points being that epoxy is a liquid so it will want to level itself.
We just have to apply it in a thickness that will promote that and not screw around with it to much.
More thin coats will always end up better than lesser thick coats.
Plus learn your epoxy. They all differ slightly.
I still get bumps and sometimes I don't chase them too hard.

There's a few video tutorials that Doc did recently that might be of interest.
If for no other reason than to show that everyone does it differently and as long as your technique matches your epoxy, it's a winner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2sna...eature=related

[Stuart]

I thought of an old trick or method I use to do years ago in which it was very effective. It will sound crazy I know but listen in then laugh your guts up. In the bad old days where I would do ridicules butt wraps on large diameter rods, outrigger poles and tag poles that could span some 20+ hours to complete in which I would never get payed for my true hours spent slaving away at them. These large butt wraps had an enormous amount of thread and in so doing they also projected quite high off the blank surface. It didn’t matter how many coats or how heavy it just wouldn’t level out nicely. So what I tried was to fill in between the high spots with epoxy first then once that was reasonably level I would then begin to coat the whole butt wrap. The wraps would come out with near zero humps or bumps. A wise man once said to me…Grasshopper, there are many ways to achieve the end result you seek.

[Owen]

Nothing crazy about that Stu.
I do pretty much the same when I do big weaves.
Usually I coat the whole thing but then I get a hacksaw blade or some other straight edge and hold it against the rod as it spins so I wipe the epoxy off all the high spots and leave the low spots.
I suppose thinning the first coat of epoxy or using a low viscosity type (lite) version would help as it would run off the high spots easier.
I've never tried it though.

[benno_r]

Thanks for all the tips guys.

I normally use FC heavy, though sometimes I use light. Heavy seems to get the nod due to the fact I work FIFO, and never have the time to put on 9 coats of light.

I got a few more tools, and a few different varieties of epoxy (Bullards, U40, and TM) on the way, so now I have finished the rods I need, I might get a few rounds of experimenting with epoxies, methods, tools etc to see what I can achieve.

Cheers,
Ben

[pedro473]

After watching Doc's video I feel much better about my way of applying epoxy, I to do all of the wrong things he points out but end up with pretty good results. I always apply a thin coat followed by 4-5 heavy coats and I apply with a good quality brush, couple of differences is that I very rearly use a flame and I always use a mixer to avoid bubbles.

Cheers
Pedro

[Stuart]

I know many go on about the importance of not introducing bubbles into the mix. I find that useless and a total waste of time in preventing this only because the moments you drop it on thread it fill with bubbles. I understand if you’re using NCP thread but even then you can still get bubbles. By the time I finish my epoxy it looks more like pea soup and you certainly can’t see the bottom of the other side of the cup. I then load the rod with epoxy and let turn for around 10 minutes then I hit it with a gentle flame until all the bubbles have dissipated. I let turn for another 10 minutes then hit the epoxy with the flame again and then I take all the excess coating off and throw it away. If anyone can find one bubble in any of my rods then I take my hat of to them. The other important point I would make concerning the use of a flame is that it’s critical you use a clean burning fuel. I have seen and used just about every type of fuel and some are best left alone. The problem with dirty burning fuels is soot. The last thing you want is soot contamination on the surface of your wet epoxy. If that should happen then wipe it all off the best you can. If we have another RBW I want to spend a bit more time with guys on coating and all the traps to avoid rather than just the usual glue and binding. I still want guys to do that but we need to spend a few hours actually coating a rod

[Mark Fisher]

You can do the best binds in the world but they will still look like crap if the epoxy job isn't top shelf. Great Epoxy work, IMHO, is the pinnacle of rodbuilding.

[benno_r]

The other important point I would make concerning the use of a flame is that it’s critical you use a clean burning fuel. I have seen and used just about every type of fuel and some are best left alone. The problem with dirty burning fuels is soot. The last thing you want is soot contamination on the surface of your wet epoxy.

Stuart,

What do you recommend as a clean burning fuel? I have the torch from AcidRod, but haven't used it, as I can't find a suitable replacement to "Alcohol" (surprisingly)

Cheers,
Ben

[Stuart]

The best cleanest burning fuel is in fact 100% alcohol that you buy from the chemist. You have to ask for it as they don’t advertise it and you can only buy it in a 100ml bottle once per day. Well that was the rule a hand full of years ago. If you can still buy it then it use to cost around $15-$20 per 100ml bottle. That stuff burns clean as a whistle and it should last you a while providing you don’t drink too much between coats. I know some use a hair dryer and I admit I did to but I got sick of dust and crap getting blown onto the coating even with a damp cloth on the back to try and catch the dust before it went onto the rod. I also used a drinking straw to gently blow through to get rid of small bubbles but again the smallest bit of moisture would then run down the straw and land in the coating. Suffice to say I pissed that idea off. You have to find the cleanest least invasive method you’re comfortable with using to get rid of bubbles. Many use different tolls and apparatus to get rid of bubbles and with practice they all work fine. There is no hard and fast rules in rod building despite what many say. In fact what ever the methods used to achieve a good end result then that is the right way. Coating took me years to master, well become good at it so don’t knock your self around if the first or 1 or 10 rods don’t come out 100% perfect. Even after 20+ years I still have my bad days, well that’s what I call them when Im being stupid and I should know better.