Shimano downgrading their tackle

[NAGG]

Hi All

Is it just me or do others think that Shimano are down grading their tackle ? . I've been in the market for a new 2000/2500 spin reel & decided to look at the current Shimano range - Now I've not had a high regard for any of the lower to mid spec shimano reels ..... but to my horror even the top of the line Stella's are starting to loose their bling value .
by comparison the likes of ABU , Shakespere , Pflueger & Quantum have come along in leaps and bounds ....... They certainly offer viable alternatives to any of the mid to high end Shimano's. There is no comparison to the mid - high end Daiwas.

Leaving reels behind - I took a look a their (Shimano) lighter spin rods - Quite simply the T Curves , Raiders & Starlo Stix range have suffered a down grade as well ..... particularly guides & winch fittings ( non fuji guides or lower spec fuji winches) The new T Curves are not a patch on the ones of a few years back.

Now I'm not here to Shimano bash - I just find it sad to see a once respected quality player in the local market go down in the quality stakes chasing the mighty dollar .......... We certainly are not paying less .

Chris

[sleepygreg]

It all depends on the brief they give to the factories in china that are producing their product. ANYTHING can be sourced ou tof china...in whatever quality you want,....but you get what you pay for. I have never been a fan of the lower end shimano products, same quality as cheapies....but customer expectations were way above reality. Maybe they are trying to stretch the friendship these days.

[Sevric]

I agree with you Nagg. Some years ago i converted all my reels from Daiwa to Shimano based on Daiwas non existent after sales service. I went to top of the range Stella and found them to be the best reel i have ever used. Having said that i recently went to purchase an ultra light reel in the 1000 size for Bass, Bream, Flathead and the like and did not wish to spend the dollars on a Stella to catch fish that do not demand such reel integrity. I looked into the mid ranges of Shimano and did not like what was there and refused to go back to Daiwa considering the poor run i had from their more elitist reels. I ended up purchasing a Pflueger Patriarch in the smallest size and have been pleasantly surprised although the reel does have it's idiosyncrasies. For the money from one of the larger online stores which included appropriate braid it represented good value for money. It will be interesting over time to see how durable the reel will be although to be fair it will not get that much use but it is OH so nice to use.

[bennykenny]

interesting you say that Nagg as shimano Australia has been bought out by the chinese in recent times. My Uncle was working for them when John Dunphy was running it and he said when the chinese took over they started cutting costs everywhere.

[NAGG]

It seems that you guys have noticed it too .. I have no dramas with tackle being built to a price point to service a certain part of the market ( we need kids , entry , mid & high end tackle) - What I'm disappointed with is that Shimano are cheapening up their range & it makes it more difficult to buy based on performance / quality.
Take for instance the Starlo Stix pro range - 5 years ago I rated these the best spin rod you could buy under $300 ..... A great blank , good fuji graphite winch fitting & they had fuji TiSiC guides - all for about $170. Today they come with a down graded injection moulded plastic winch (fuji) & some stainless steel unknown abomination of a guide - the blank still is ok.

Chris

[Sevric]

Shows how far behind the times i am. Last i heard Shimano bought out Loomis; now the Chinese buy out Shimano; what is the world coming too. It would be sad if they do not keep to the same quality as we have all been used too. Perhaps there is room in the market for more custom built reel services as following on from custom rod design and production. 30 / 40 years ago the only people having rods custom built were the big game fishermen of the time. I built a few myself as did mates but today there is a never ending aray of custom rod builders / designers; far to many producing goods at a reasonable cost considering componentry for me to be bothered trying again myself. Maybe in not to many years the same will apply to reels. There is nothing worse than trying to get the most out of light sporting fishing gear only to have it stuff up through inferior design or crappy materials.

[NAGG]

I'm just a little surprised that the world leader in tackle manufacture have allowed the likes of Pure fishing (ABU & Pflueger) or Quantum to close the gap so quickly ...... In the small & mid size spin range market. Sure they dont have a Stella equivalent but they certainly have the rest of the range covered and probably overhauled.
Daiwa have been left to gallop away and literally own the mid to high end spin market ...... Even the once venerable Stella has fallen away with the introduction of the FE range .... The Exist now walks all over it (IMO). so do the likes of Steez , Morthan Branzino , Exist Branzino ..... in those sizes
Shimanos rod range just doesn't compare anymore ...... I certainly wouldn't pay $300 plus for the current T Curve.
Btw - I cant really comment on what is happening in the game / offshore scene

Chris

[Sevric]

I certainly agree with you Nagg that Daiwa make a nice product at the top of the range, hard to beat really performance wise. Unfortunately there is more to a reel than than the components that make it either good or bad, there is the company behind it. Daiwa unfortunately have become a little elitist perhaps arrogant as a company. In my opinion after sales service also comprises the make up of the total package of making a reel purchase. It is here that they get the big thumbs down from me. It will be interesting for me to see what the after sales service from Pflueger amounts to when the time comes. Shimano to this point have been good in respect to service but falling quality may play a part in this in the future. This is one aspect i will be watching closely from now on if the company has gone over to the Chinese methodology of cheap is best.

[NAGG]

I certainly agree with you Nagg that Daiwa make a nice product at the top of the range, hard to beat really performance wise. Unfortunately there is more to a reel than than the components that make it either good or bad, there is the company behind it. Daiwa unfortunately have become a little elitist perhaps arrogant as a company. In my opinion after sales service also comprises the make up of the total package of making a reel purchase. It is here that they get the big thumbs down from me. It will be interesting for me to see what the after sales service from Pflueger amounts to when the time comes. Shimano to this point have been good in respect to service but falling quality may play a part in this in the future. This is one aspect i will be watching closely from now on if the company has gone over to the Chinese methodology of cheap is best.

Totally agree about the Daiwa service ...... I was just told it would take around 4-6 weeks to get my certate looked at.
The trouble is (now) that Daiwa faces little competition ..... it will probably get worst.
Next time you are in a decent tackle store , just wander around and look at the latest shimano offerings ....... cheap bling on the rods & the finish of the reels is looking cheap and boring - very disappointing

Chris

[reggy]

The chinese can make low to highest quality anything. You get what you pay for, but changing to lower quality components on a rod is a covert way of putting the price up.

[NAGG]

Yes Reggy .... thats it , reduce cost & make more profit ........ I even noticed that on one range of rods they no longer use fuji guides but switched to Pacific bay (zirconium inserts...... which are cheaper than the SiC guides.
The chinese are able to build (copy) quality stuff - but I would much prefer to see the price increase while maintaining or improving the quality and performance..... specially on the mid range gear

Chris

[blackjew]

Gday ,if they are still a good blank ,were do you get em ,

I need a reasonable second hand nice spin rod ,I got a you beut one from BW it has nice writing on the blank lol. im not rich,has anyone got an old one in the back of your shed ,thats gathering dust


Ocean Storm at kiama ,has dropshots tournament for $199 buy 1 get 1 free .mega stocktake sale .heaps of specils that wont last long.

Cheers Rob

All the best Rob

[Micadogs]

Hi Nagg, I am a Daiwa fan and own a lot of their top end reels in spin and overhead. You will notice that Daiwa is also producing some of their top end gear in developing countries now, for example the Saltiga Lever Drag is made in Thailand. A couple of years ago it would have been unheard of for their top product to be made anywhere but Japan, yet it is occurring now.

I have never had to use Daiwa after sales service so never had an issue there. I think it is a testament to the quality of their reels that tehy have never needed repair. I use a local service agent for the yearly service - not sent back to Daiwa. Turnaround time is approx a week. This is a great alternative to using Daiwa. If parts are needed you can try Daiwa Australia or purchase from OS. I have found, using ordinary post parts arrive within 6 - 8 days from the USA. So another good method.

Reels owned: Spin: Steez, Catalina, Certate Overhead: Saltiga LD 2 speed, Saltist LD 2 speed

As for rods, I haven't purchased a store bought rod for 3 years now. I started making my own and have never looked back. You know the quality of the components are top notch and the fit is spot on.

I used the first rod I ever made offshore and have caught many large fish on it. It isnt that hard and can overcome the problem of diminishing quality from the majors.

Regards Adam

[Brent_P]

Shows how far behind the times i am. Last i heard Shimano bought out Loomis; now the Chinese buy out Shimano; what is the world coming to.

Sevric, he was referring to Shimano Australia (the Australian distributor of Shimano tackle). Shimano is still owned by the Japanese.

Nagg, I think you might've been looking at the T-curve Revolution range of rods, which is supposedly a 'budget' version of the original T-curves, which are still being produced with the same Fuji components.

Personally, I'm very impressed with Shimano's newer reels, released in the last 3-4 years, like the Stella SW, Saragosa, Talica & Talica II, Trinidad A, Thunnus CI4, Stella FE, and so are a lot of other people on international forums, from what I read. The other day I read on a US forum, where the Saragosa is popular as a budget alternative for tuna jigging, that "150lb tuna are probably the upper limit for a Saragosa". Not bad for a spinning reel that retails in the US for around $250, and I haven't read anything about ABU, Shakespeare, Pflueger & Quantum being used in this class of fishing (and nothing very good about Chinese Daiwa Saltists, either). Okay, so we don't catch a lot of 150lb fish jigging in Australia, but we do run similar drag settings, and it's good to know that such a moderately priced reel can stand up to the abuse (unlike its competitors, in the same price bracket).

There's some more good news for Shimano fans too - in two weeks time, the new Stradic and Sustain will be revealed at the Icast show in Las Vegas. I'm sure these will be the Japanese Domestic Market Biomaster and Ultegra Advance, possibly with different paint jobs. Hopefully the new Sustain will be the (JDM) 2011 Biomaster, rather than the 2008 model (which has already been released in Australia, but not in the US, as the "Twinpower FC" - for double the JDM price, you get an extra spool and an extra tiny $10 bearing on one end of the worm gear). The present Australian and US market Stradics and Sustains were originally JDM Biomasters and Ultegras, which were discontinued in Japan before the release of the 2008 models - a pretty good way of continuing to use molds (and R&D), which have long since paid for themselves. The 'paladin' drive gear and the 'propulsion' spool were new at the time, though, I think.

Another thing some might not know too, is that the 'Stradic CI4' was released in Japan as the 'Rarenium CI4', a year or two before the 'Stradic CI4' was released in Australia and the US.

Brent.

PS. I also own some Daiwa's

[NAGG]

Sevric, he was referring to Shimano Australia (the Australian distributor of Shimano tackle). Shimano is still owned by the Japanese.

Nagg, I think you might've been looking at the T-curve Revolution range of rods, which is supposedly a 'budget' version of the original T-curves, which are still being produced with the same Fuji components.

Personally, I'm very impressed with Shimano's newer reels, released in the last 3-4 years, like the Stella SW, Saragosa, Talica & Talica II, Trinidad A, Thunnus CI4, Stella FE, and so are a lot of other people on international forums, from what I read. The other day I read on a US forum, where the Saragosa is popular as a budget alternative for tuna jigging, that "150lb tuna are probably the upper limit for a Saragosa". Not bad for a spinning reel that retails in the US for around $250, and I haven't read anything about ABU, Shakespeare, Pflueger & Quantum being used in this class of fishing (and nothing very good about Chinese Daiwa Saltists, either). Okay, so we don't catch a lot of 150lb fish jigging in Australia, but we do run similar drag settings, and it's good to know that such a moderately priced reel can stand up to the abuse (unlike its competitors, in the same price bracket).

There's some more good news for Shimano fans too - in two weeks time, the new Stradic and Sustain will be revealed at the Icast show in Las Vegas. I'm sure these will be the Japanese Domestic Market Biomaster and Ultegra Advance, possibly with different paint jobs. Hopefully the new Sustain will be the (JDM) 2011 Biomaster, rather than the 2008 model (which has already been released in Australia, but not in the US, as the "Twinpower FC" - for double the JDM price, you get an extra spool and an extra tiny $10 bearing on one end of the worm gear). The present Australian and US market Stradics and Sustains were originally JDM Biomasters and Ultegras, which were discontinued in Japan before the release of the 2008 models - a pretty good way of continuing to use molds (and R&D), which have long since paid for themselves. The 'paladin' drive gear and the 'propulsion' spool were new at the time, though, I think.

Another thing some might not know too, is that the 'Stradic CI4' was released in Japan as the 'Rarenium CI4', a year or two before the 'Stradic CI4' was released in Australia and the US.

Brent.

PS. I also own some Daiwa's

Brent .... what you say in part might be true in part - But the current Stella FE & Twin power are not as good a their predecessor. The CI4 Thunnus falls short of its predecessor.
The new paint jobs are a way of cheapening each model ..... It's not an enhancement .
The move to the composite (CI4 ... Rarenium) is a way of cheapening up this range - Magnesium is more expensive to cast & machine than a composite.

all it takes is to pick up and look at the current Stella , Twin power , Thunnus & Sustain ..... then compare them to previous models - they all fall short
I would much prefer to own a FB Stella than an FE
as for rods ..... there is no Shimano lite or mid spin rod that I would now buy!


Chris