Direct Injection 2 strokes

[Mtx]

I had the 200 Yammie HPDI on my Yalta. Absolutely fantastic motor, great on fuel, power and reliability. Uncle had the 175 HPDI on his plate and said it was the best motor he had ever had. (he has had a few over the years) and does all his fishing offshore.
I would highly recommend one to anyone looking for a DI.
I do not have any experience on the other DI motors available.

[Smithy]

They have all had dramas that I know about. Obviously the V6 Fichts took OMC under yet the V4s were never a problem. When the Tohatsus came out Peter Keidge on the BASS circuit had all sorts of trouble with a couple of them. Poptimax wise Bob P on here had one blow up, Motty on the BASS circuit had one blow up and I think there was another that blew up too when I was doing BASS comps. Their gearboxes etc. are noisier and in general they are noisier than an Ebomb. Etecs, well we all know about them and how many have had injector problems. I don't mind the 75-90 ones and smaller but the rest are a waste of time. Use heaps of the fuel compared to the other brands and the oil is the same price as gold. HPDI have had issues. Bill Corten blew one up early days. I had another mate who had a V6 Ficht on originally but he sunk his boat and went to a HPDI of the same horsepower on a 620 HH Warrior and the Yamaha used more fuel than the Ficht. All of that said, I know of 2x150 Yamaha 4 strokes that have blown up less than 100 hours old under warranty and I still went and bought one myself. Can't help if they are Monday morning first thing or Friday arvo knock off time motors can you?

[ozscott]

Smith - Billy stayed with Yammy though from memory. How long ago are we talking for the Opti and HDPI blow ups. I know both had problems early on. When talking Ficht I know what age you are talkinga about, but not sure on the others. I would be surprised if there is a problem inherently with any of the Optis from the last say 5 years apart from loosening bolts on the compressor which can be kept an eye on.

Cheers

[Moonlighter]

I cant comment on the Tohatsu 115 however I had a TLDI 90 which is a 3 cyl on my previous boat and it was a fantastic motor, never missed a beat and did over 400 hrs. very fuel efficient, killed even the 90 Honda 4 strokes. They are a bit noisier than the Etecs but not anywhere as noisy as Optis which tend to sound like a cement mixer. BobP used to somewhat unkindly refer to mine as "the little diesel" as that's what he reckoned it sounded like. I think they are a significantly underrated engine. I had absolutely no trouble selling my boat with the TLDI on the transom.

The most simple way to conceptualise the Etec compared with the TLDI/Opti design is to consider paint spray guns: the Etec is similar to an airless spray gun which uses a electrical solenoid style injector, whilist the TLDI and Optis use the air compressor driven version. Think aboiut which sort of paint spray produces the finest and best finish....

BTW TLDI/Optis are using licenced technology developed in Aus by Orbital technologies, and in fact their injectors etc are quite a bit simpler than the Etec system. Proven technology these days.

The only thing I had to service on the TLDI system over the years I had the motor was a scheduled replacement of the compressor drive belt and some fuel filters.

The TLDI's are a very nicely built, Japenese constructed, simple, proven design. Im told they are upgrading to meet the new 3 star standard in their next model year, with test engines already in the field.

Cheers

Ml

[Smithy]

Scott,

nothing recent springs to mind though anyone who had anything to do with the early ones sure got a bad taste in the mouth. I also forgot to add a couple of mates with Poptimaxs recently had to replace their compressors. Once again slightly older ones with 700-900 hours odd. Both of those guys have now gone Yammie 4 stroke. Bob P obviously stuck with Merc but went Verado. If the high tech DI 2's were so good, why have all these guys gone 4 stroke? Perko springs to mind as someone who has had an Opti then had a series of 4 strokes since.

Also, if they were so good why are no pros running them other than Samson. Outsider Skip had an Ebomb and now has a Honda, in some threads Samson has said he prefers his 150 Yammie 4 strokes over his Etecs. Not a single spanner crabber or pro line mackerel fisherman out of Mooloolaba with outboards has a DI 2 stroke! If they were so good and the servicing was so cheap surely the economics would have been done by these guys but there is not a single one on the water commercially here. Paddy the shark net contractor started with big Optis and has gone 250 Yammie 4 strokes. The oil was killing him with the Mercs. The one dive boat here has Verados and the other dive boat has Suzukis. Is everyone picking up on something?

[ozscott]

Thanks mate - yeah I dont disagree with you as to the commercial guys from what I have seen too. I always keep a weather eye on the commercial set as part of the equation. Thanks for the info.

Cheers

Oz

[doublexl]

yes i have to agree with smithy! i'm a commercial crabber and i started with an optimax,good motor but i have gone to df140 suzuki.in my opinion the best motor around in this hp range.i do around 1200 hours in 12 months,fuel economy is brilliant.reliability is brilliant.servicing is pretty good to,i service at 120hours and believe me servicing these outboards is nothing like what the etec salesman try and drum into you.its much cheaper to buy/run a 4 stroke be it yammy honda or suzuki than buy/run a 2 stroke di.have a look at who buy and use 4 strokes,water cops/vmr/coastguard/boating and fisheries/commercial fisherman and what do we all have in common? we do 1000's of hours on the water each year so why are we all using 4 strokes? because they are much cheaper to run and are very reliable,thats it.yes there is a little power difference,but with the correct positioning of the motor and prop purchase[stainless is a must] you will never look back.

[Spaniard_King]

Scott,

nothing recent springs to mind though anyone who had anything to do with the early ones sure got a bad taste in the mouth. I also forgot to add a couple of mates with Poptimaxs recently had to replace their compressors. Once again slightly older ones with 700-900 hours odd. Both of those guys have now gone Yammie 4 stroke. Bob P obviously stuck with Merc but went Verado. If the high tech DI 2's were so good, why have all these guys gone 4 stroke? Perko springs to mind as someone who has had an Opti then had a series of 4 strokes since.

Also, if they were so good why are no pros running them other than Samson. Outsider Skip had an Ebomb and now has a Honda, in some threads Samson has said he prefers his 150 Yammie 4 strokes over his Etecs. Not a single spanner crabber or pro line mackerel fisherman out of Mooloolaba with outboards has a DI 2 stroke! If they were so good and the servicing was so cheap surely the economics would have been done by these guys but there is not a single one on the water commercially here. Paddy the shark net contractor started with big Optis and has gone 250 Yammie 4 strokes. The oil was killing him with the Mercs. The one dive boat here has Verados and the other dive boat has Suzukis. Is everyone picking up on something?

Smithy,

I managed to get the Etec off his boat just after xmas.... he is now runing a 150 Honda still has the 150 yamy 4's on his big boat

[cormorant]

yes i have to agree with smithy! i'm a commercial crabber and i started with an optimax,good motor but i have gone to df140 suzuki.in my opinion the best motor around in this hp range.i do around 1200 hours in 12 months,fuel economy is brilliant.reliability is brilliant.servicing is pretty good to,i service at 120hours and believe me servicing these outboards is nothing like what the etec salesman try and drum into you.its much cheaper to buy/run a 4 stroke be it yammy honda or suzuki than buy/run a 2 stroke di.have a look at who buy and use 4 strokes,water cops/vmr/coastguard/boating and fisheries/commercial fisherman and what do we all have in common? we do 1000's of hours on the water each year so why are we all using 4 strokes? because they are much cheaper to run and are very reliable,thats it.yes there is a little power difference,but with the correct positioning of the motor and prop purchase[stainless is a must] you will never look back.

The old "police and VMR use em so they must be good" is a lame one often trotted out by the manufacturers and dealers. They are not out buying them at retail and have service agreements that ensure they have contracted low downtime. The manufacturers use these high profile departments often as loss leaders and advertising. It isn't the same as the average punter. As we know a lot of motor will run forever if started and run everyday with fresh fuel, oil , battery but totally different to a recreational user. Commercial users often spend huge hours at low revs and as they have crew on board / rules don't spend large hours at the top end of the rev range. The motors on these boats are changed out at XX hours or XX years regardless so as not to be seen to fail and when a failure occurs a spare is on in 24 hours as per the contract. They get seen by mechanics who have a clue and actually do preventative maintainance. As the underlying user never sees the cost of repair they never see the parts and the replacements that go into it. I can give you examples of every brand having low hour failures in powerheads, gearboxes, belts thrown,smallest little things , computers trim units , misting issues , corrosion, electrics. I can tell you that there was some groups with contracts to a manufacturer that were so sick of unrelaibility that they didn't like taking the boat out and counted down the days till they had motors replaced. A lot of survey and commercial boats were designed to accept higher weight outboards and needed all the power you could strap on due to the equipment they carry. I saw hulls modified by a motor manufacturer as their outboards were too heavy for a hull and people were getting wet feet.

I think the commercial guys have different considerations as they change out before major failures in so many cases and are on a different playing field where they rarely own motors out of warranty/ service contract and have got their moneys worth by that time. They have leverage at dealers as they buy multiple motors and spend a lot on maintainance service and parts. They also have a brain and can hear when a motor is not on song and is down on power, using fuel, oil etc and since they don't want downtime look at it and get it fixed so they are not stranded. Last of the big ones is that commercial boats are usually set up correctly with decent electrics and decent fuel filters that are all regularly changed out.

It is all about total cost of ownership, downtime and how you are treated by a dealer both in and out of warranty. It isn't a even playing field. A lot of failures are because people don't recognise the start of a failure. Only people that know true failure rates and causes are the manufacturers and they are hardly going to tell you.

We all know some commercial guys who aren't the sharpest pencil in the pack and others who don't know anything about motors and can barely work out where the fuel goes in. Some change moors as different dealers change brands and other dealers are given a bounty to get guys to change from one brand to another. I have to say that Yammi finance was a huge success and helped a lot of commercial guys who couldn't get credit on good terms put a new Yami on the back and extra bonus if they upgraded to a Yami upon replacement.

Overall there should be a lot less powerhead failures these days with so many sensors to stop the motor before they do fail and the quality and tollerances within motors as the manufacturers have had to retool to meet new pollution standards. Mind you the 4st powerhead is a mass of moving parts but long years of auto manufacture means they have got good quality control. Doesn't mean they don't stop but should decrease the cost of a repair if only the manufacturers would put reasonable prices on spare parts outside of warranty.

I guess if we could assess motors at real cost with no hanky panky and real failure rates and their causes it would be good. Isn't that what the journalists and experts are supposed to do when they are not accepting hospitality!!! ( ha ha)

[krazyfisher]

I had a TLDI 115hp for a couple of years and was very happy with it I would buy another

[ozscott]

The old "police and VMR use em so they must be good" is a lame one often trotted out by the manufacturers and dealers. They are not out buying them at retail and have service agreements that ensure they have contracted low downtime. The manufacturers use these high profile departments often as loss leaders and advertising. It isn't the same as the average punter. As we know a lot of motor will run forever if started and run everyday with fresh fuel, oil , battery but totally different to a recreational user. Commercial users often spend huge hours at low revs and as they have crew on board / rules don't spend large hours at the top end of the rev range. The motors on these boats are changed out at XX hours or XX years regardless so as not to be seen to fail and when a failure occurs a spare is on in 24 hours as per the contract. They get seen by mechanics who have a clue and actually do preventative maintainance. As the underlying user never sees the cost of repair they never see the parts and the replacements that go into it. I can give you examples of every brand having low hour failures in powerheads, gearboxes, belts thrown,smallest little things , computers trim units , misting issues , corrosion, electrics. I can tell you that there was some groups with contracts to a manufacturer that were so sick of unrelaibility that they didn't like taking the boat out and counted down the days till they had motors replaced. A lot of survey and commercial boats were designed to accept higher weight outboards and needed all the power you could strap on due to the equipment they carry. I saw hulls modified by a motor manufacturer as their outboards were too heavy for a hull and people were getting wet feet.

I think the commercial guys have different considerations as they change out before major failures in so many cases and are on a different playing field where they rarely own motors out of warranty/ service contract and have got their moneys worth by that time. They have leverage at dealers as they buy multiple motors and spend a lot on maintainance service and parts. They also have a brain and can hear when a motor is not on song and is down on power, using fuel, oil etc and since they don't want downtime look at it and get it fixed so they are not stranded. Last of the big ones is that commercial boats are usually set up correctly with decent electrics and decent fuel filters that are all regularly changed out.

It is all about total cost of ownership, downtime and how you are treated by a dealer both in and out of warranty. It isn't a even playing field. A lot of failures are because people don't recognise the start of a failure. Only people that know true failure rates and causes are the manufacturers and they are hardly going to tell you.

We all know some commercial guys who aren't the sharpest pencil in the pack and others who don't know anything about motors and can barely work out where the fuel goes in. Some change moors as different dealers change brands and other dealers are given a bounty to get guys to change from one brand to another. I have to say that Yammi finance was a huge success and helped a lot of commercial guys who couldn't get credit on good terms put a new Yami on the back and extra bonus if they upgraded to a Yami upon replacement.

Overall there should be a lot less powerhead failures these days with so many sensors to stop the motor before they do fail and the quality and tollerances within motors as the manufacturers have had to retool to meet new pollution standards. Mind you the 4st powerhead is a mass of moving parts but long years of auto manufacture means they have got good quality control. Doesn't mean they don't stop but should decrease the cost of a repair if only the manufacturers would put reasonable prices on spare parts outside of warranty.

I guess if we could assess motors at real cost with no hanky panky and real failure rates and their causes it would be good. Isn't that what the journalists and experts are supposed to do when they are not accepting hospitality!!! ( ha ha)

Some good points there. I do know of several redlands based crabbers etc that run (or ran - this was several years ago I was aware of this ) optimax - and posted 2,000 - 3,000 on them in a few short years.

Cheers

[ozscott]

...is it just me or does anyone else like the term "hanky panky" that Cormorant uses above...its so little used these days

Cheers

[Tickleish]

yes i have to agree with smithy! i'm a commercial crabber and i started with an optimax,good motor but i have gone to df140 suzuki.in my opinion the best motor around in this hp range.i do around 1200 hours in 12 months,fuel economy is brilliant.reliability is brilliant.servicing is pretty good to,i service at 120hours and believe me servicing these outboards is nothing like what the etec salesman try and drum into you.its much cheaper to buy/run a 4 stroke be it yammy honda or suzuki than buy/run a 2 stroke di.have a look at who buy and use 4 strokes,water cops/vmr/coastguard/boating and fisheries/commercial fisherman and what do we all have in common? we do 1000's of hours on the water each year so why are we all using 4 strokes? because they are much cheaper to run and are very reliable,thats it.yes there is a little power difference,but with the correct positioning of the motor and prop purchase[stainless is a must] you will never look back.

All true about the commercial guys and if i used my boat everyday i would have a 4 stroke too. Quite, easy to drive, no vibration, a bit like driving your wife's corrolla, but for someone like me who uses thier boat once every two weeks at the tops,I love everything their is about a two stroke. I drive a new modern car thats like driving in a bubble, comfortable and quite & i love it like that because i drive it everday but if i only drove once a month i'd have the badest mo fo VH Vailiant i could.

5:00 am tomorrow i'll be slowly idling away for the ramp zipping down the clears breathing the early morning air & itching to crack open the V6 2stroke.

[joey_1987]

This article is worth a read given your enquiries about the TLDI 115hp:
http://boatpoint.com.au/engine-revie...-tldi-115-9339

It's now a 3 star engine too, you can't really go wrong with it and if it's what you want then go for it. I haven't owned a TLDI myself but do own a Merc/Tohatsu 30hp 2s and it just goes with minimal fuss and is quite economical too.

[FisHard]

I had a 90hp FICHT ram and loved it! Great on fuel and 100pc reliable. It was however, a real liability when it came to selling the boat.