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Thread: How the Green Game is played and won

  1. #1

    How the Green Game is played and won

    This story is not 100% about fishing, but we are not alone in being run over by the green monster.

    FYI an apparatchik is a Russian Comunict party hack / buraucrat - back room dealers who actually ran the country in the cold war days

    Backroom deals bless their wildest dreams
    THE Labor chairman brazenly winks at environmentalists turning up at a federal parliamentary committee hearing in Brisbane.
    Queensland bureaucrats and the Wilderness Society work like a tag team, dumping forests of submissions before a second federal inquiry into Tony Abbott's wild rivers bill by the House of Representatives economics committee, announced late last year as a stalling tactic by the government.
    Strange decisions are taken about which submissions are accepted and allowed to be posted on the committee's website, and which are not. Private hearings are held in remote locations, taking evidence only from witnesses sympathetic to the Queensland laws, without other traditional owners present.
    From their opening submissions in Canberra, it becomes clear that the commonwealth bureaucrats are with the environmentalists and against Aboriginal landowners. They make outrageous assertions about how properly the Queensland government conducted itself in relation to its wild rivers scheme, knowledge that the commonwealth is simply not in a simply not in a position to have.
    I ask one senior bureaucrat: "Why is the commonwealth making assertions about facts that only the Queensland government can attest to?"

    He blithely answers that if I disagree with anything, then we have every opportunity to point it out. I respond that while we understand it is up to us to refute misinformation that might be peddled by our opponents before the inquiry, surely when public servants make submissions, these should be relied on as impartial and factual.

    I ask whether he understands the difference between staffers who work for politicians and the duties of members of the Australian Public Service. Despite these being pointed out, the commonwealth still has not corrected its misleading evidence. Needless to say, this inquiry is a pig circus.

    Last week, at the other end of the continent, people such as former ABC Gardening Australia presenter Peter Cundall were getting a taste of the same shaft that TWS has stuck into the hapless natives in Cape York Peninsula.

    Except this time it was green v green, when federal Environment Minister Tony Burke approved the contentious Gunns paper mill with the connivance of key TWS operatives.

    Sue Neales was left nauseous, writing in Hobart's The Mercury last weekend: "But what was so sickening and saddening to observe this week was the slick and calculated feel of almost every public utterance, media release and altered nuance issued in relation to the [Bill] Kelty forest peace talks, forest protection plans and the Tamar Valley pulp mill.

    "It was impossible not to watch all the dominoes magically line up within three days of each other, the linkages being made between the issues and positions critically shifted at the last minute, and not feel a sense of done deals sealed behind closed doors."

    Yes, Aboriginal landowners in Cape York know too well about done deals sealed behind closed doors. Neales writes: "The effect, yet again, was to make the majority of Tasmanians feel that they had been excluded from a cunningly manipulated decision-making process."

    Neales is scathing about the roles played by TWS national campaign director Lyndon Schneiders and Environment Tasmania's Phill Pullinger: "That was exactly the trade-off or in-bed-with-the-devil deal that so many Tasmanians, especially those agitating against the loathed pulp mill, had feared was in train."

    When supporters on the ground see they're being sold out, Neales writes of the dissembling from the leaders: "The back-pedalling that followed from the environmental groups this week, as their phone lines clogged with diatribes from enraged members, was both masterful and, it must be said, hardly honest.

    "On Wednesday, a press release signed by the three environmental groups involved in the Kelty statement of principles negotiations came out with a statement that suddenly seemed to withdraw their backing of the previous week for the proposed Tamar Valley pulp mill.

    They called for federal Environment Minister Tony Burke to reject its approval, claiming it was now 'totally unacceptable'."

    Neales points out that Gunns made its plantation-timber-only concession last year: "So for the Wilderness Society et al to claim in a press release on Wednesday that they were 'rejecting' the 'current' pulp mill proposal because it used native timber was disingenuous in the extreme, deceitful at best."

    Welcome to our world. This is what happens when some green leaders adopt a by-whatever-means-necessary approach to protecting the environment. They end up treating communities with contempt and using genuine local and regional environmental patriots as fodder in their big-picture campaigns.

    Schneiders is the embodiment of this new phase in environmental activism: the environmentalist as apparatchik rather than the old model of environmentalist as campaigner.

    The influence and power of these green apparatchiks is impressive, and has delivered large wins. In Queensland, state Labor is beholden to groups such as TWS for delivering green preferences. In return, they have all but outsourced their environmental portfolios to these groups.

    But these green apparatchiks are trashing community relationships in the countryside. They ride roughshod over rural people, landowners who were pioneers in the Landcare movement, Aboriginal communities that share conservation goals, and industries that are genuine about sustainability. Indeed, in a moment of hubris Schneiders once revealed to academic researchers he considered public consultation "a long suicide note".

    Green apparatchiks sit down with Labor hardheads in state secretariats and play a giant game of chess, trading pawns across a chessboard the size of Queensland. Public consultation is a sham while deals are cut by the big boys.

    This chessboard trade-off was evident when the water management deals cut between Queensland Labor under Peter Beattie and TWS came to grief with the Traveston Dam.

    When the Greens and TWS went soft against the dam before the state election in March 2009, it was apparent that this did not just involve Labor preferences to Greens candidate Ronan Lee in the seat of Indooroopilly.

    It pointed to the earlier below-the-radar deal to trade support for a dam in the southeast in return for wild rivers up north and out west. But then Peter Garrett, as environment minister, torpedoed Traveston. I wonder how many people in the Bligh government ponder the double game played by TWS: running dead in Brisbane but going by the back door to Canberra.

    In any case, the Queenslanders lost $500 million on Traveston, proving how dangerous it is for governments to play environmental games with taxpayers' money.

    The Queensland Wild Rivers Act is truly draconian. It provides no appeal rights and no parliamentary review.

    The minister has virtually unfettered powers, providing fertile opportunity for organisations such as TWS to become silent partners in government. Processes that conservation groups normally hold sacred - appeal rights, natural justice and procedural fairness - have been denied to indigenous people in respect of wild rivers legislation.

    Protection must be afforded indigenous people from powerful single-issue interest groups intent on removing their rights

    The UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People is intended to lay the foundations for these protections. The right of free, prior and informed consent to policies and regulatory actions is at the heart of this protection.

    State Labor has turned a blind eye to that principle, endorsed by its federal counterparts, and has focused instead on repaying political debts. Federal Labor's principles in this area are to be tested.

    Noel Pearson is director of the Cape York Institute for Policy and Leadership.
    Last edited by Gary Fooks; 11-04-2011 at 09:28 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: How the Green Game is played and won

    Hopefully this wonderful article got the attention it so richly deserves.
    I'd love to see Noel Pearson as our PM one day.
    Thanks for putting the article up Gary.

  3. #3

    Re: How the Green Game is played and won

    How the green game is won.

    OH yess

    get an acedemic with no relivent qualifications, to publish a poorly reasearched paper that is fatally flawed, factually suspicious and techicaly incorrect, then use it to frame polocy

    NO Garry we havn't forgotten about your 2 stroke, oil spill paper.

    cheers
    Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.

  4. #4

    Re: How the Green Game is played and won

    Tell you what … You and your anonymous friends want to take up this offer?

    We choose and Accountant or Auditor in Brisbane, both of us put his/her fee and $1000 for a charity in a trust fund. Winner choosed the Charity

    I then go painstakingly through the numbers … and Audit the lot.

    If the Auditor says I am correct – within a margin of estimate (say 10%) then he /she takes your money to pay the fee and the $1000 is sent to charity. And you post a written acknowledgement on Ausfish.

    If the Accountant says I am wrong, then I will pay the lot and post the details here and an apology.

    Fair enough? I’ve hadenough of anonymous slander. So put up or shut up.

    ******************************************8

    Just to get the Accountant started check out this sample of data yourself

    Manufacturers test their own outboards to ICOMIA standard(International version of BIA or Marine Qld) and then have them certified for use in the USA. The USA EPA then audits the testresults. So lets look at Yamahas owntest results.

    The USA EPA data is more comprehensive but California easierto access and read so I suggest you start here http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/cert.php

    Now look up spark ignited Marine SI engines and in 2001 and Yamaha. Look down the list and you will see a zerostar rated engine – an EFI two stroke (efi are cleaner than carby) 165 kw (225hp) Down load the PDF and you can read that thecertification (tested) level of emissions (HC+NOx) is 116.52g/kw/hr

    Now lets look at a 3 star engine. Again Yamaha, 225hp and this time a stroke. I found one in the 2005 database and at 3352cc This Yamaha has a level of emissions(HC+NOx) is 15.12g/kw/hr

    So the difference for a high quality 225hp is 116.v2 vs15.12 but what does that mean? g/kw/hr is grams per kilowatt per hour. 225hp is 165.5 kw (actual tested hp – look at the pdf) So:

    165.5 x 15.12 = 2502 grams or 2.5kg

    165.5 x 116.52 = 19284 grams or 19.3 kg

    SO THAT’S THE DIFFERENCE - almost 17kg more emission per hour.

    Carby two strokes are worse - at least double the efi. So on the same basis the Yamaha 15hp CV puts out 2.7kg of emissions per hour. YEP the15hp carby two stroke pushes out a touch more emission per hour than a 225hp four stroke!

    If you want to come up with some BS argument don’t bother - just put up your money and suggest anauditor.

    ANYWAY - suggest an Auditor - put up $1500 and I will put all the data and calculationbefore him or her.
    Last edited by Gary Fooks; 19-04-2011 at 06:41 AM.

  5. #5

    Re: How the Green Game is played and won

    An auditor...so we have one expert with no relivant qualifications and no understanding of the issue commenting on the conclusions of another expert with no relivant quailifiactions and plainly a poor understanding of the issue.

    No doubt your figures all agree with themselves, the problem with your paper is a number of incorrect assumptions and what if fails to consider.

    Anybody half smart can arrange a group of found statistics and present a convincing superficial case for anything they like..... but it does not make it fact.
    Hell.... look at how many environmental decisions are justified, and some of those are expected to stand up the scrutiny by the auditor general.

    IT is incorrect asumptions and ignored considerations that make your green biased sensational paper fataly flawed from the outset.

    OH and posting in large print does not make your case any more valid.

    NOW we see how the greenies make their cases.

    Floging two stroke motors has been a happy passtime of greenies for decades


    YOU have shown yourself for what you are.

    We are happy to remain anonimous, because we are not trying to make a name for ourselves.

    It is you that posts on an open forum and can not cope with the pier review that brings.

    Further I have not seen you address any of the objections raised, like our current politician you simply continue to insist your conclusions are correct.

    Yes MR FOOKS you may well tell us how the green game is played.

    cheers
    Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.

  6. #6

    Re: How the Green Game is played and won

    A couple of issues Mr Fooks fails to address.

    He compares the quantity of two stroke used in outboard motors with a a large oil spill such as would come from an oil tanker or from a holed ships fuel tank.

    This is the flagship sensational claim of the paper

    He fails to account for the majority of the two stroke being burned.

    he also draws an irrelivent comparison.
    Because there is a vast difference between a large quantity of dirty heavy mineral oil being dumped all at once and far far smaller amounts of biodegradable oil being put into the environment over a very much longer period and over a much wider area.
    Shipping fuel oil or crude oil are quite persistent in water, where as TCW3 twostroke oil that most outboards burn is designed to be biodegradable and begins to break down immediately on contact with water.

    many of the claims and statistics in MR fooks paper hinge on the government published boating usage statistics.......which have been questioned many times as being a gross over estimate.

    He totaly fails to account for the environmental costs of replacing existing two stroke motors with new generation product.
    He totally fails to address the environmental costs of manufacturing and maintaining more complicated new generation machines. ( I think they call it "Prius syndrome")

    yess this is how the greens make their cases.

    cheers
    Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.

  7. #7

    Re: How the Green Game is played and won

    Just to press the point a little further.

    We have a federal government "trying" to justify a "carbon tax", a plainly green polocy.
    SO
    What sort of scientist have they advising them on this environmental polocy, some sort of environmemtal scientists, a climate scientist perhaps may be an engineer with an understanding of alternative enerrgy.
    NO
    they have MR Guano..... an economist with no environmental, climate or engineering qualifications..... and economist, acountants view them as witch doctors most real acedemics don't even consider economics a science.

    You can bet MR Guano's figures will stand up to audit.

    But the central principle is still BS in the view of the majority of australian voters.

    cheers
    Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.

  8. #8
    Ausfish Premium Member PinHead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003

    Re: How the Green Game is played and won

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Fooks View Post
    Tell you what … You and your anonymous friends want to take up this offer?

    We choose and Accountant or Auditor in Brisbane, both of us put his/her fee and $1000 for a charity in a trust fund. Winner choosed the Charity

    I then go painstakingly through the numbers … and Audit the lot.

    If the Auditor says I am correct – within a margin of estimate (say 10%) then he /she takes your money to pay the fee and the $1000 is sent to charity. And you post a written acknowledgement on Ausfish.

    If the Accountant says I am wrong, then I will pay the lot and post the details here and an apology.

    Fair enough? I’ve hadenough of anonymous slander. So put up or shut up.

    ******************************************8

    Just to get the Accountant started check out this sample of data yourself

    Manufacturers test their own outboards to ICOMIA standard(International version of BIA or Marine Qld) and then have them certified for use in the USA. The USA EPA then audits the testresults. So lets look at Yamahas owntest results.

    The USA EPA data is more comprehensive but California easierto access and read so I suggest you start here http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/cert.php

    Now look up spark ignited Marine SI engines and in 2001 and Yamaha. Look down the list and you will see a zerostar rated engine – an EFI two stroke (efi are cleaner than carby) 165 kw (225hp) Down load the PDF and you can read that thecertification (tested) level of emissions (HC+NOx) is 116.52g/kw/hr

    Now lets look at a 3 star engine. Again Yamaha, 225hp and this time a stroke. I found one in the 2005 database and at 3352cc This Yamaha has a level of emissions(HC+NOx) is 15.12g/kw/hr

    So the difference for a high quality 225hp is 116.v2 vs15.12 but what does that mean? g/kw/hr is grams per kilowatt per hour. 225hp is 165.5 kw (actual tested hp – look at the pdf) So:

    165.5 x 15.12 = 2502 grams or 2.5kg

    165.5 x 116.52 = 19284 grams or 19.3 kg

    SO THAT’S THE DIFFERENCE - almost 17kg more emission per hour.

    Carby two strokes are worse - at least double the efi. So on the same basis the Yamaha 15hp CV puts out 2.7kg of emissions per hour. YEP the15hp carby two stroke pushes out a touch more emission per hour than a 225hp four stroke!

    If you want to come up with some BS argument don’t bother - just put up your money and suggest anauditor.

    ANYWAY - suggest an Auditor - put up $1500 and I will put all the data and calculationbefore him or her.
    I am bloody glad you are not a brain surgeon..10% is quite a lot of latitidue on any so called "research".

    Gary..you ever heard of live and let live..I prefer to live without someone telling me what motor I can buy. perhaps I should do the same for fridges and air cond you may own..but i am not interested..if you are comfortbale with what you have..go for it..so leave me alone and stop shoving crap in people's faces so that some dumb pollie can then dictate how that person lives..I am sick of it.

    2 stroke forever !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  9. #9

    Re: How the Green Game is played and won

    Oldboot, I agree that modern economics is not a science. 95% of "Economists" today haven't got a clue what they are talking about and think that a government can manipulate an economy with a push of a button. I agree with all your comments re the 2 stroke issue.

    Garry, care to explain how the greens are failing this one ?

    "Protection must be afforded indigenous people from powerful single-issue interest groups intent on removing their rights"

    Indigenous people in this country are afforded more "single-issue" freedoms than any other group in this country...... Take "traditional" hunting rights as an example. Please tell me what is "traditional" about an indigenous bloke runing around in a tinny with a rifle hunting dugongs and turtles that are protected from the rest of the population.
    Democracy: Simply a system that allows the 51% to steal from the other 49%.

  10. #10

    Re: How the Green Game is played and won

    [quote=Lovey80;1274623]Ol

    Garry, care to explain how the greens are failing this one ?

    "Protection must be afforded indigenous people from powerful single-issue interest groups intent on removing their rights"

    quote]

    I didnt write the story. I posted it here because Wild Rivers is of interest to anglers and mostly because of the alleged tactics used by some.

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