Steering free play normal?

[coconha]

Hi,
I have a Mercury 115 EFI 2001 outboard fitted with a side-mounted Seastar hydraulic steering cylinder. There is a bit of free play when I push the engine from side-to-side. My first thought was I had some air in the hydraulic system. But it was a lot more obvious than that! I noticed the free play is in the connection between the hydraulic cylinder rod and the engine's drag arm. The nut and washer seem to be secure and correctly in place. I had a look at the Seastar application manual available here http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/PDFs/PDF_files.htm. It does not seem to contain a description requiring any bushing to reduce the gap. The free play is probably enough to allow a 1/4'' sideways free play of the prop. Is this supposed to be like that? Any suggestions?

[Noelm]

they are all a bit "wobbly" as long as there is no obvious wear it should be fine.

[coconha]

I understand and I am a little relieved to know that is nothing wrong with it then.

But this makes me wonder why bother having a hydraulic system?

[Noelm]

because you can turn the wheel with ease, regardless of speed or motor HP.

[Lancair]

I have seastar hydraulic steering on my 115etec and theres no free play at all anywhere. Your setup doesnt sound right to me.

[tigermullet]

I don't know about this hydraulic stuff. Have been on three boats where 'play' in the steering persisted despite spending hundreds of dollars in two cases and thousands in another. Each of them steered like pigs regardless of the amount spent in repair or replacement.

What is wrong with cable and pulley? Works fine, costs little, is reliable and not heavy if installed correctly.

[robothefisho]

What is wrong with cable and pulley? Works fine, costs little, is reliable and not heavy if installed correctly.

Nothings wrong with it, but cable and pulley is only ever fitted to race boats... Cable on the other hand, I still prefer it over hydraulic anyday, set up a boat/ motor to run neutral and there is no need for it, maybe with engines over 200hp ok, but its a pita on anything less and makes low speed manouvering painful.

Oh and freeplay is completely normal and you won't ever get rid of it. So long as your not turning the wheel for no movement of motor on an hydraulic setup... then you have air bubbles.

[tigermullet]

Yes, I forgot the bubbles! For every bubble there was an excuse why they kept coming back. Didn't matter how much money was spent, the bubbles persisted. So did the leaks. Hydraulic leaks and bubbles will outlive religion.

[gofishin]

There is possibly another reason you are getting play with this particular brand of hydraulic steering system, and it depends on whether tube or hose was used. Also, with this brand of steering it is near impossible to bleed it 100% properly without an auto bleeding machine. You can get it close, but never 100%.

A hydraulic system by definition should not allow any free-play of the O/B, lose joints excepted, as the fluid (oil) is practically incompressible. Therefore, so long as there is no air in the system (compressible), and the seals/valves are intact, there should be no (or very minimal) free play when you grab the O/B and shake it.

For a long time I have had this very ‘symptom’ with my steering system, which I did not like and never had with another brand of hydraulic system I have been used to for the last 30+years.

To cut a long story short, I enlisted the help of the guru (Jim McKinnon, Captain Rednut), who replaced the ram under advice from the manufacturer – but the problem persisted! After inspecting every steering system item while someone shook the O/B, Jim then twigged that it was expansion in the fancy Kevlar wrapped pre-swaged hoses that allowed the movement. Sure the O/B springs back to its original position, but in a seaway with the torque from a big 4 stroke who wants their O/B deviating +/-10mm on the ram each way? Especially if you have an autopilot! Needless to say it will get the hoses replaced with tube at the next service (except for the flexible hoses in the splash well), and all will be as good as possible.

For anyone with hyd steering problems/issues I highly recommend you should talk to Jim, he is the man!

[Noelm]

if you read the original post, he has some 'slop" in the mecahnical connection to the motor, that is, a bolt through a hole, and a swivel connection of some srt, this is normal, he does not mention any play in the actual hydraulic system.

[borryking]

If you are feeling movement from the engine end it sounds like there is some wear or incorrect spacers, etc. There are check valves that prevent movement back to the helm the hydraulic system. There is usually some slop (up to 5deg) while inputting at the wheel due to the check valves.

[oldboot]

As has been drawn to our attention.

the original poster has identified the freeplay being associated with some sort of mechanical coupling.

In short if there is a shaft or pin in a hole and there si excessive slop there...there probaly should not be.

So many times in the boating industry, people do "the best they can with what they have" instead of getting the correct part or having one that fits properly made.

If you are mechnicaly minded and are inclined.......have a close look and don't assume the marine dealer knows best......if there is slop there and it does not look right or you don't like it.....fix it...it might just be a case of getting the right pin and clevis or something..........

Quite likely it might be a metric/imperial compatabilty issue....one with be close to a fit in the other..... but no cigar.

As for the benofit of hydraulic streering....current boat has hydraulic streering....I have hydrive....and it is great, it is smooth, low effort and the wheel and the motor stays where you put it.

Hydrive are very very particular about the type of tube and the type of oil used.

And like any hydraulic system, being a bit carefull about how the tubes are run, can make all the difference to how easy things are to bleed.

cheers

[johncar]

I don't believe that there should be any significant play in there, mechanical or hydraulic,

from what you are saying it seems like it could either be just from wear being a 2001 engine or the bush was left out which is not surprising.

I would expect a properly bled hydraulic system to have about 1 -2 mm compressive play in the ram when using considerable manual turning force on the engine from side to side and not spongy feeling.

I would also expect negligable play in the mechanical connections to the engines steering arm.

[Noelm]

OK, lets look at how the side mount system works, there is a ram that screws into the tilt tube, just like old cable steering, this ram has a rod protruding out of it (of course) and onto this rod is another rod, that fits nice and snug in the tilt tube, to join the two, there is a drop in pin, that once inside the tube, cannot fallout, in the end of that rod is a flat section with a 9/16" hole in it, there is a tie bar/drag link that has a right angle bend in it and at this bend it is 9/16" (of course) and it fits through the hole with a nyloc nut, the other end has a similar setup, or may have a ball joint at the motor end, everyone OK with that? so places to have a possible small amount of "play" is the pin that connects the two rods inside the tilt tube, the tolerance of the rod in the tube itself, the 9/16 connection at the rod end, and the ball joint at the motor end, everyone still with me? so from this, a tiny amount of play is needed in all these places to allow movement, and all this play added together results in "slack" completely different to a front mount hydraulic system.

[coconha]

Hi, I thanks everyone for their posts. They were very helpful.

And although this is my first own boat, I was born overseas and spent all my childhood on my dad's boat which I drove since the age of 8. We used to go fishing and I learned how to really drive when the two of us took-up waterskiing when I was 10. Maybe a little irresponsible from his part, but I loved it... Anyway, so although this is my first boat, I think I still have in me how a boat should feel like. My dads boat had a cable steering system with an Evinrude 140HP.

I noticed by the posts, that the cable/hydraulic choice is a very personal one. I bought this boat second-hand a couple of years ago. I love everything about it except how difficult it is to steer in slow speeds. Reading one of the posts above by robothefisho, I now realise why that is the case. It probably has nothing to do with the slop, but to the hydraulic choice itself. And just to confirm, the "slop" I can verify is restricted to the connection the hydraulic cylinder rod hole and and the engine's drag arm (where the nyloc nut goes).

I will take it apart and take some measurements and photos and post them here next time I have some time.