Snapper Stocks - Another View

[Bad_Company]

From archives on Ausfish 23rd October 2001..... for those who havent seen it.



Greetings to all, did you know the bag limit for Snapper in Queensland is an unsustainable, 30 per person? With that in mind, I’m hoping you might be interested in, and be able to help with the "Help Save The Gold Coast Snapper" campaign. To explain, please read the email below, sent by me, Bob Krojs, to our fisheries minister on the 11/10/01,to the Honourable Minister of Fisheries/DPI, Mr Henry Palaszczuk. #...
My name is Bob Krojs, I have been fishing the Southport/Gold Coast reefs for approximately 4 days per week for 13 years and running my charter boat business on the Gold Coast for 3 years now and have grave concerns regarding our rocky reef fish stocks, particularly Snapper.
Rather than just complain, I decided to contact a few fisho’s to gain there response, I’m glad I did, it seems everybody agrees, we need the Snapper bag limit lowered and the minium size increased now. Of course there are other issues being/to be addressed, this one is an easy obvious start. Please read the following replies/comments, they are typical of many more. Please note that I have no political motivation/motive, or any close association with any major lobby group. COMMENTS BELOW…

BROWNIE, channel 7 fishing show host and fishing reporter, replied...you can send this on. Bob your right, 10 years ago, we would often film only part of snapper catches taken from charter boats off the Gold and Sunshine Coast reefs, because it just looked obscene to show so many big quality fish, dead. #These days, we are lucky to film 1 snapper per week....GPS has turned mugs into killers....Brownie

MIKE BLENKINS - Owner - Gold Coast Fishing Tackle, said- Uneducated, uncaring fisho's, now have to and are travelling further to catch the "Hero" bag of Snapper. Yes, there are a few patches left, kept sustainable by those in the know, who go there rarely and take only a couple, let's reduce the bag limit to save them, make it not worth the cost of getting there. Bob Krojs tells me that recreational fisho's are still selling fish for boat fuel. We must educate!!! I would support 2 per person. You have my unconditional support in this attempt to change what are now ridiculous limits

RAY JOYCE, of the Marine Life Institute, said, he has been conducting his study for the last 8 years and has meet with and passed his findings on the Snapper decline to the Department of Primary Industries Fishery many times. Ray is also the Vice President of The Queensland Charter Vessel Association, which represents fishing charter boats in Queensland and hopes for a bag limit of 3.

STEVE FROM FISHY FISHING.. an interstate fishing website wrote,...30 snapper per person you say!!! I had no idea you were culling fish up there! Queensland has always been known for the great fishing, not only by the locals and interstate anglers but international anglers also. If the bag limit isn't reduced to a respectable amount of 1 or 2 per person you will not only be culling the fish but also the fishing tourism in Queensland...sincerely Steve.

JAN PRIOR- from Wahoo Charters...Yes we agree, we have given this print out to all our Skippers and crew, something has to be done. (Wahoo Charters is the largest and longest serving charter service on the Gold Coast)

I/BK, believe it should be 1 per person only, particularly on the Gold Coast. I know through my tagging and recapturing of the same tagged Snapper on the exact same GPS mark 3 and 4 times in a 3 year period that Snapper can be/are, residential.

And too many more similar comments to list.......

QUEENSLAND FISHERIES ADVISED ME/BK..... #don't worry the bag limit is coming down to ten, and the minium size is being increased to 35cm.

BK'S REPLY TO QFS.....thanks, that's great, 10 snapper per person, that's only 2,000 per day on the Gold Coast, that's on the charter boats only, we can't catch 1 on some days, South Australia is on the ball, and currently has a closed season, please read the comments again, thankyou, yours sincerely, Bob/BK

IT SEEMS WE HAVE TO EDUCATE ALL, ON THIS CRISIS,
WHEN ALL FISHO'S/VOTERS ARE INFORMED, IT WILL GAIN VOTES FOR THE POLITICIAN WHO PUSHES "SUSTAINABLE FISHING LEGISLATION".

THE CURRENT CONSENSUS AVERAGE, FROM REPLIES, IS A BAG LIMIT OF 2 SNAPPER PER PERSON.

If you can help please send your thoughts to The Honourable Minister of Fisheries/DPI, Mr Henry Palaszczuk, at dpi@ministerial.qld.gov.au . Please also forward this message to anyone you know who may be interested, thankyou, sincerely, Have a great day from BK.

Bob Krojs, Owner/Skipper of BK's Fishing Charters Gold Coast Australia.

[Jeremy]

We on ausfish are recreational fishers (mainly) and are rightly outraged that the DPI&F is proposing closures based on dodgy science. The onus is not on us to provide accurate data Andy. The onus is on fisheries to provide plausible data to support their claims.

Most of the regular snapper fishers on here who have replied agree that the estimate of 415 tonnes is just a joke. The two responses which support the estimate come from people who do not fish for snapper and have little knowledge of the fishery.

FWIW, here is my estimate. 90% of the snapper catch comes from Bundaberg to the Tweed between May and September. That is 6 months. 95% of rec fishoes can only fish on weekends, and lets say that on overage 50% of weekends are unfishable offshore due to weather. That leaves 24 fishable days on weekends = 15.6 tonnes of snapper rec catch each fishable day. Average size 1.6 kg (fisheries data) = 9727 snapper taken. Bag limit 5 = almost 2000 anglers bagging out, and taking an average of 8 kg of snapper home with them, or 4000 anglers taking 2-3 snapper and average of 4 kg snapper home.

What a joke! I fish offshore 20-25 times per year and I know what I am doing. I caught more than 5 snapper once this year (3 kept), and my total take of snapper this year was 25 kg.

Tree stump/birds nest burners aside, does anyone who regularly fishes offshore and catches snapper (i.e. has personal knowledge of the fishery) consider this realistic?

It just doesn't happen. Spend some time at the boat ramps Andy. See how many boats come home with empty eskies or occasionally half a doz mixed parrot, pearlies, trag and snapper. There are very few gun anglers around who can go out there any given weekend and bring home a full esky.

I KNOW YOU CANNOT USE THIS ANDY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE DO NOT HAVE TO SWALLOW THE BS WE ARE CURRENTLY BEING FED.

What is being proposed is simply a catch redistribution from recs to the pros and charter sector based on a rec only closure. The real reason that this is the only option on the table is that the commercial sector is opposed to an increase in the size limit because the seafood industry needs 'plate sized' snapper for the table.

We are being screwed because we do not matter to them.

Won't affect me. Stuff them. I will still go out there, just catch and release instead. Just as much fun and still get the photos.

[PinHead]

Bad Company..it is fantastic that the Gold Coasy charter boats aren;t targettiong snapper or making sure very few are kept and are concentrating on other species. They have had 9 years since that was posted. But..they continue to show pics of their catches..obviously all legal but they really aren't doing anything so help theiur businesses if they were so sure that the snapper were in big danger 9 years ago. These pics are from various websites and one pic is from the site of one of the persons having a whinge back in 2001.

[Bad_Company]

Totally agree Pinhead.As long as it works for them thats all they care about.How about Banning Charter Boats?

[Pistol_P]

No need for any closures or any of this Bulltwang......Mother nature takes care of it anyway.

Over the last two months how many fishable days have there been..?

Pete

[Lovey80]

thats exactly right, arguing abuot whther or not the figures can be made to look good or bad or ingbetween is all academic at this point

the data is clearly rubbish as indicated by the scientific review , so the only conclusion is to go back ot the drawing board, devise and implemetn better data collection and produce a stock assessment that's worth the paper it's printed on

until that is done any and all squabbles about the current figures is irrelevant imo

ps

happy new years everyone

Well said Danners if only our representatives who manage the fishery could have the same professional attitude.

Andy, I don't want to fill out a catch card! What a pain in the backside that will be. I bet people taking huge hauls back 30 years ago had a whinge about bag and size limits too. I will fill one out but only if it is made MANDATORY and I know that the little pain in the backside is part of a bigger comprehensive data collection that will provide a better outcome. I think Rec Anglers have come a long way with their attitudes over the last 30 years and with the right education will see this as a necessary step to maintain their chosen lifestyle into the future. They are aware of the lack of reasonable need to lock them out of large areas of Moreton bay and the GBR and if they could just get a decent fisheries management that they could feel confident in their utmost professional attitude I am sure the average bloke on the street would not mind the pain in the backside.

[NAGG]

We on ausfish are recreational fishers (mainly) and are rightly outraged that the DPI&F is proposing closures based on dodgy science. The onus is not on us to provide accurate data Andy. The onus is on fisheries to provide plausible data to support their claims.

Most of the regular snapper fishers on here who have replied agree that the estimate of 415 tonnes is just a joke. The two responses which support the estimate come from people who do not fish for snapper and have little knowledge of the fishery.

FWIW, here is my estimate. 90% of the snapper catch comes from Bundaberg to the Tweed between May and September. That is 6 months. 95% of rec fishoes can only fish on weekends, and lets say that on overage 50% of weekends are unfishable offshore due to weather. That leaves 24 fishable days on weekends = 15.6 tonnes of snapper rec catch each fishable day. Average size 1.6 kg (fisheries data) = 9727 snapper taken. Bag limit 5 = almost 2000 anglers bagging out, and taking an average of 8 kg of snapper home with them, or 4000 anglers taking 2-3 snapper and average of 4 kg snapper home.

What a joke! I fish offshore 20-25 times per year and I know what I am doing. I caught more than 5 snapper once this year (3 kept), and my total take of snapper this year was 25 kg.

Tree stump/birds nest burners aside, does anyone who regularly fishes offshore and catches snapper (i.e. has personal knowledge of the fishery) consider this realistic?

It just doesn't happen. Spend some time at the boat ramps Andy. See how many boats come home with empty eskies or occasionally half a doz mixed parrot, pearlies, trag and snapper. There are very few gun anglers around who can go out there any given weekend and bring home a full esky.

I KNOW YOU CANNOT USE THIS ANDY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE DO NOT HAVE TO SWALLOW THE BS WE ARE CURRENTLY BEING FED.

What is being proposed is simply a catch redistribution from recs to the pros and charter sector based on a rec only closure. The real reason that this is the only option on the table is that the commercial sector is opposed to an increase in the size limit because the seafood industry needs 'plate sized' snapper for the table.

We are being screwed because we do not matter to them.

Won't affect me. Stuff them. I will still go out there, just catch and release instead. Just as much fun and still get the photos.

Just for you Jeremy ...... since you like throwing numbers out there.


There are just over 137,300 registered boats in Qld over 4.5M ...

The fisheries tell us that the rec catch equates to 400 tonne (400,000kgs) So lets stick with those numbers
That would equate to 2.9kgs of Snapper per boat / year ( regardless of anglers)

But not everyone fishes for snapper or is in the right region ...... I hear you say
OK ....... but we know that the greatest majority of boat ownership is in SE Qld - so lets say 30% of the boats fish for snapper (41,190) at one stage or another ........ That would equate to 9.7kgs of snapper / boat / year ...... or around 800 grams per month ....... Thats per boat not anglers

Now dont you think that this number sounds likely if not under estimated.

Oh yeh .... btw there are another 50,000 boats between 4.0 - 4.5 meters that I left out of these figures ..... and as we know , a boat of this size can fish for snapper in many prime locations ..... and they do ( several of my mates certainly do)

Yes we can project a totally different spin by using different figures .........


Chris

PS - The southern & western state/s all agree that the snapper fisheries are over exploited - what makes SE Qld different ? -
I might not be a Snapper expert ....... but I have seen enough and heard enough to form an opinion.

[foggy]

I will proved an estimate of fish stocks. If no one is catching anything, its likley there is no fish there (for whatever reason).

When you look at the data on catch rates, you can usually map it reasonably accurately to events such as seasonal variation, temp, etc or it can actually show a steady decline in stocks over a period of time. Or vice versa you can accurately predict when species are going to come on the bite.

I have seen data from catch rates over long periods and you would be surprised what can be ascertained from it.

I have just read this thread and this is the worst statement in the whole thread. If no one is catching anything, its likely theres no fish. What a statement!!
So it has nothing to do with weather, tides, moon, or so many other variables.

I have had days offshore when the sounder was alive with what I thought was snapper all day and could not raise a scale. Mate goes over the side before we go with scuba gear on and speargun in hand and returns 5mins later with a couple of 5-6 kilo snaps and says they are everywhere. Thousands of em. Stuffs your no fish there approach.

Any fisherman has days when the fish are there but wont feed. No one can truly explain why but it is a regular occurence.

If research is done at ramps on one of these days, how in hell can the data be accurate.
On the other hand if the research was based on one of the better days when bagouts were a common occurence then the data would be totally different.

How can any of this prove the estimate of fish stocks in the ocean.

Foggy

[TheRealAndy]

I have just read this thread and this is the worst statement in the whole thread. If no one is catching anything, its likely theres no fish. What a statement!!
So it has nothing to do with weather, tides, moon, or so many other variables.

I have had days offshore when the sounder was alive with what I thought was snapper all day and could not raise a scale. Mate goes over the side before we go with scuba gear on and speargun in hand and returns 5mins later with a couple of 5-6 kilo snaps and says they are everywhere. Thousands of em. Stuffs your no fish there approach.

Any fisherman has days when the fish are there but wont feed. No one can truly explain why but it is a regular occurence.

If research is done at ramps on one of these days, how in hell can the data be accurate.
On the other hand if the research was based on one of the better days when bagouts were a common occurence then the data would be totally different.

How can any of this prove the estimate of fish stocks in the ocean.

Foggy

Read it again.

If no one is catching anything, its likley there is no fish there (for whatever reason).

I never once said that there is no fish at all.

And, when the DPI did the research, there was indeed not a lot of fish there,and this was also echoed by the rec sector. Something has changed since then, so what is that? If we were still in drought now i suspect that a lot of people here would be jumping up and down about there being no snapper.

Remember this research was not done purely on the pathetic input from rec fisherman, it was also commercial and charter. The latter 2 provide far more usuable data that any rec angler would.

[Big Deez]

I have just read this thread and this is the worst statement in the whole thread. If no one is catching anything, its likely theres no fish. What a statement!!
So it has nothing to do with weather, tides, moon, or so many other variables.

I have had days offshore when the sounder was alive with what I thought was snapper all day and could not raise a scale. Mate goes over the side before we go with scuba gear on and speargun in hand and returns 5mins later with a couple of 5-6 kilo snaps and says they are everywhere. Thousands of em. Stuffs your no fish there approach.

Any fisherman has days when the fish are there but wont feed. No one can truly explain why but it is a regular occurence.

If research is done at ramps on one of these days, how in hell can the data be accurate.
On the other hand if the research was based on one of the better days when bagouts were a common occurence then the data would be totally different.

How can any of this prove the estimate of fish stocks in the ocean.

Foggy

For your info and your mate's. From the regs:

The use of underwater breathing apparatus other than a snorkel is not permitted when taking fish, whether by spear, spear gun, hand or any other means.

[brisbane]

Here is some real data for everyone interested in snapper stocks.We are commercial line fisherman tageting ,at times snapper. I have been doing this for 45years. While catches obviously vary year to year the general trend FOR US is that our catches are getting better not worse.!!!!! This snapper issue is not about the poor bloody fish--Its about a broke governmemt grabbing cash.My opinion--all of us--- recs, pros ,charter ops-- are about to be screwed.

[FNQCairns]

bottom line is the QLD fisherys department needs to grow...they may be government but have had the political scope for years now to operate simply as a GONGO (government operated non governmental organisation), these are used to accomplish political aims/idologys whereby the government proper can stay largely distanced from the ingrained corruption,behaviours, ideologys and the organisations general treatment of any people conserned in achieving the aim.

Australia has and had quite a few of them.

Without the corrupt fabrication of so much 'new work' over so many years and very much of this has been against us anglers, fisherys would already have shrunk to a level that would certainly have hurt their bottom line (bank accounts and personal power/self interested base's).

It's is politically possible to hit them where it hurts but only once they have been identified by their behaviour....while we fantasise they hold any benevolent/democratic/ethical core we will never catch up to them.

[foggy]

Read it again.

If no one is catching anything, its likley there is no fish there (for whatever reason).

I never once said that there is no fish at all.

And, when the DPI did the research, there was indeed not a lot of fish there,and this was also echoed by the rec sector. Something has changed since then, so what is that? If we were still in drought now i suspect that a lot of people here would be jumping up and down about there being no snapper.

Remember this research was not done purely on the pathetic input from rec fisherman, it was also commercial and charter. The latter 2 provide far more usuable data that any rec angler would.

I read it right the first time. I acknowledge that you said likley. I was just trying to put another point of view across by saying that sometimes there is fish there and just because no one caught any does not mean there was no fish.

Foggy

[foggy]

For your info and your mate's. From the regs:

The use of underwater breathing apparatus other than a snorkel is not permitted when taking fish, whether by spear, spear gun, hand or any other means.

Big Deez,

I am well aware of the regulations. By scuba I meant snorkel, goggles and flippers. We were only in about 9mtrs of water.

Foggy

[Lovey80]

Big Deez,

I am well aware of the regulations. By scuba I meant snorkel, goggles and flippers. We were only in about 9mtrs of water.

Foggy

Foggy i agree with you catch rates are a waste of time. A huge amount of anglers will fish Snapper grounds when there are pleanty of fish but just not catch any. I am worried that these so called "effort" figures are taken too heavily into consideration. Just because one tries to catch should have very little weight when determining how many fish there are.

For reference SCUBA = Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus. Hence why big Deez jumped on you. If he hadn't someone else would have.

I personaly wouldn't have a problem if Fisheries allowed Scuba Divers to take 1 fish on spear ( of course no rod fishing at the same time to make it policeable). It would be a pretty sustainable way of fishing and bycatch would be Zero with one big fish taken at a time. Not that very many divers would even consider it.