checking an alternator?

[finga]

Two lines each....what is your definition of an alternator, a generator, a dynamo and a magneto Old Boot?
I couldn't be bothered to read that mumbo jumbo I'm afraid. I might later when I have more time but for now....

There was one thing that did not quite make sense when I rushed through it though
It must be understood that a "Magneto" is one of the oldest, crudest, and least efficeint electricity generating devices we have.
So why aren't magneto's called generators??

I'm off for tea.

PS: We dealt a lot with charging thingo's in my TAFE courses. Wasn't just 1st year that's for sure.
Is a 50MVA alternator a small round spinny thing?

[ozscott]

Poke poke...

[cormorant]

Geeze a dynamo is a washing detergent - everyone knows that . You guys should get out more , less chatting up the check out chick , moving that little advertising triangle divider thingo and cruise the isles!! The other 2 are probably in isle 17 but I never go there! That is for serious shoppers only

[finga]

Two lines each....what is your definition of an alternator, a generator, a dynamo and a magneto Old Boot?
I couldn't be bothered to read that mumbo jumbo I'm afraid. I might later when I have more time but for now....

There was one thing that did not quite make sense when I rushed through it though
It must be understood that a "Magneto" is one of the oldest, crudest, and least efficeint electricity generating devices we have.
So why aren't magneto's called generators??

I'm off for tea.

PS: We dealt a lot with charging thingo's in my TAFE courses. Wasn't just 1st year that's for sure.
Is a 50MVA alternator a small round spinny thing?

bump.
Nearly forgot about this until I saw Oldboot posting in another thread

[oldboot]

If you can't be bothered reading and understanding my post in its entirety, that gives a full and adequate explanation of the terams I cant be bothered giving you a simplified explanation.

cheers

[finga]

RUBBISH
A magneto is any type of electricity generating device where a rotating permanent magnet is spun past a stationary coil to generate electricity.

An alternator is a device where a electricaly energised windings are spun past a stationary field or fields to produce electricity......the output voltage is regulated by varying the field current.......this is what produces electricity for most of our homes and what you have in your car.......mostly only very large outboard motors have true alternators.

An alternator on the other hand, ( in automotive we use non self exciting alternators), if you can get the motor started, an alternator will not properly function without the battery it needs to make the field.....even if the alternator can self excite from residual magnetism it is unlikly to generate high voltages, and has a pretty damn good chance of comming out of the whole thing unscathed...


cheers
Remember too that these magneto charging systems, are very inefficient and produce very small amounts of charge compered to what we are used to from an alternator in a car, truck or tractor.

Well I disagree as well.

A generator is anything that can change one form of energy into another.

In this instance it is generally accepted that we're referring to a mechanical force been made into electrical energy.
This mechanical energy that is converted to an electrical energy can be broken down into two main sub categories. AC and DC been generated via the process of induction. Induction basically means a form of magnetic field is there somewhere

Anything that generates electricity in an AC wave form is called and Alternator (because the wave form alternates above and below the zero reference point)

Anything that produces a DC output via induction is called a Dynamo. It is generally accepted that the wave form from a dynamo is not a pure DC output.

There are other methods of DC generation like solar and chemical electrical generation but they don't require a magnet somewhere so they're in another classification I won't go into here as we're just talking about the conversion of mechanical force to electrical energy.

Now to the magneto bit.
A magneto is any type of electricity generating device where a rotating permanent magnet is spun past a stationary coil to generate electricity.
Rubbish. A magneto is a specific type of alternator as it's output is AC.
A magneto is a type of alternator specifically designed to give an output of a substantially high output voltage to enable spark to jump across two contacts to cause an internal combustion engine to run.
The real proof of this meaning is either to do a google for magneto or, better still, is to go into an outboard shop, go to the spare parts counter and ask for a magneto for a 1978 20hp Evinrude and see what you get.
Hint. It won't be the charging coil. It'll always be the bit that gives the spark plugs the spark.

Self excitation, various types of magnetism and various regulation methods have nothing to do with the general terms for the various types of electric generators. They are all sub sets so to speak.
For those who don't understand and would like to it's like classifying boats.
In the big picture of floaty things (we'll call them boats) we can break that into two main sub categories. Mono and catamaran.
In electricity generation (same big picture as boats) we can break that down into two main sub categories. AC and DC (alternating current and direct current).

If we consider mono hulls the same as AC generation.
With boats in the category of mono hull we can break that down further into sub categories such as displacement and planing hulls.
At this level I would be using sub classifications of brush-less and brush type alternators.

We all know displacement hulls can be further broken down into many more sub-sub categories such as Barges, tug boats, trawlers, Container ships, oil tankers etc etc that are intended for specific uses.
In electric terms (this time AC) alternators (seeing they make AC) can be further broken down into sub-sub categories once we determine if they fall into the brush-less or brush type of alternator.

In this case of a magneto on an outboard they are a sub-sub-sub category of generators.
We have Generator then Alternator then Brush-less Alternators and then Magneto.
In boat terms it would be Boat then Mono hull then Planing then ski boat
Magneto is not at the big end of the pecking order. It's nearer to the bottom just as a ski boat is way down the list in the order of classifications of boats..

Another sub-sub-sub category of alternator would be the charge coil on your outboard. Another sub-sub category of alternator would be the 'generator' in the shed you use when the power goes out (which can be broken down into many, many different sub-sub-sub and then some more sub categories) or the alternator in your car which can be broken down further as well.

I'll leave out the catamaran hull comparison to the DC side of power generation as magneto was what we're talking about and I have some things to do like get some firewood but if someone wants to know more then say so.

It's not rocket science.
Big picture is electricity is generated by a generator that is broken down into sub categories called Alternators (AC) and Dynamo's (DC) which are broken down into sub-sub-sub categories such as brush-less and brush type and then magneto's (in the AC side of things).

As with everything there are exceptions. Solar power and batteries are an exception to the rule of DC electricity generation. They give a pure DC output whereas dynamo's don't hence why they deserve their own category of electricity generation.

How's that Fed??

How come condenser's (capacitor's) weren't mentioned with points in the ignition system?
And don't ask where hydro-foils fit into boat classifications.

[chappie]

wow Finga, for a while there, in the middle, i really started to believe i understood some of that.

[finga]

Sorry about that. Just read the bold black bits and it'll be clearer.
The rest is waffle in reality.

[oldboot]

The truth is over time all the words have been used indiscriminately and truly without any reference to any real meaning they may have.

In the grid connect, building based AC electrical trades, generators, alternators, magnetos, dynamo's......who cares because the vast majority of workers never actually work on any of them.......they simply connect the wires to the supply provided.
Thus no distinction is made in the trade.

As far as dynamo's being DC.....in my youth anybody who had a pushbike with lights on it had a thing that had "dynamo" printed large upon it.....truth to tell many of them produced true AC..(it had no comutator, that was simpler and cheaper)..the one on my bike certainly did...i think I still have it somewhere...

So incorrect and non specific use of all the words is very very common.

BUT..if you go to anybody in the auto trades (the DC world) and say "generator" that means something very specific and that is a device that produces DC in a particular way and is not found on modern cars, likewise if you say the word "alternator" the vision of something very specific comes to mind and with that comes expectations of performance.

Likewise the word "magneto" refeers to something in a particular form and it is specific to small engines, a coil usually mounted under or behind the flywheel and acted on by permanent magnets, usually mounted on the flywheel.

Regardless of it being configured for ignition, charging or lighting purposes, the appearance, physical form and principle of operation remains the same...they are all magnetos by convention in that industry.


As far as going to a parts suppler and asking for a coil that fits under the flywheel of an outboard.....they will probably not use the word "magneto" at all in the parts listing.
It will almost certainly say "charging coil" or "ignition coil" and in many cases particularly where there is a modern ignition it will be one and the same coil and part of the same assembly.

My point being that people very commonly expect "alternator" type performance and behaviour like in their car from the chaging system in their outboard, and thus fail to understand many things.

cheers

[Bros]

Anything that generates electricity in an AC wave form is called and Alternato

Well I might jump into this useless conversation. I have worked in Power Stations for most of my life from 30mw to 480mw units and everyone had a generator to make electricity the word alternator was never mentioned anywhere.

So how's that for confusion.

[finga]

The truth is over time all the words have been used indiscriminately and truly without any reference to any real meaning they may have.
Bullsh!t

In the grid connect, building based AC electrical trades, generators, alternators, magnetos, dynamo's......who cares because the vast majority of workers never actually work on any of them.......they simply connect the wires to the supply provided.
Thus no distinction is made in the trade.
Bullsh!t. In fact you would not pass an electrical trades if you did not know the difference between them.
That is easy for someone not in the trade to say about the trade.

As far as dynamo's being DC.....in my youth anybody who had a pushbike with lights on it had a thing that had "dynamo" printed large upon it.....truth to tell many of them produced true AC..(it had no comutator, that was simpler and cheaper)..the one on my bike certainly did...i think I still have it somewhere...
But they are an alternator. Just because it has dynamo written on it doesn't mean that's what it is.
Using that logic a Ford Mustang is a horse. An AC Cobra is a snake. A Pride Panther is a cat

So incorrect and non specific use of all the words is very very common.
Because of all the misinformation given out willy nilly by those trying to bullsh!t.
You talk specifics. So do I.

BUT..if you go to anybody in the auto trades (the DC world) and say "generator" that means something very specific and that is a device that produces DC in a particular way and is not found on modern cars, likewise if you say the word "alternator" the vision of something very specific comes to mind and with that comes expectations of performance.
What your talking about is indeed a dynamo but it was dumbed down to generator as a very generalised term for mainly clients of those trades who had to fix them or work on them.
A dynamo is still a generator. So is an alternator and so is a dynamo.
I know who call the car's alternator the generator. Still right but not specific.
Google it. Definition of a dynamo. DC output.
Modern cars have an alternator because they're an alternator. They give out an AC waveform which is then turned into DC via the rectifier.

Likewise the word "magneto" refeers to something in a particular form and it is specific to small engines, a coil usually mounted under or behind the flywheel and acted on by permanent magnets, usually mounted on the flywheel. That produces a spark to make the spark plug spark.
Go to Crowley Marine site and show me one mention of the word magneto. Coils is the norm. Maybe there's a reason for that??
http://www.crowleymarine.com/

Regardless of it being configured for ignition, charging or lighting purposes, the appearance, physical form and principle of operation remains the same...they are all magnetos by convention in that industry.
Bullsh!t. A huge difference in them. Find me one reference to a well known parts manual where a lighting coil is called a magneto.
As far as going to a parts suppler and asking for a coil that fits under the flywheel of an outboard.....they will probably not use the word "magneto" at all in the parts listing.
I wonder why?? Because they're not magneto's
It will almost certainly say "charging coil" or "ignition coil" and in many cases particularly where there is a modern ignition it will be one and the same coil and part of the same assembly.
Show me one part where a lighting or charge coil is built into the ignition coil.
You don't get too many true magneto's at all on outboards since the 1950-60's. Generally there is a coil which generates enough Ummff to enable the ignition coil to make a spark happen at the spark plug.

My point being that people very commonly expect "alternator" type performance and behaviour like in their car from the chaging system in their outboard, and thus fail to understand many things.
My point is people talk bullsh!t.
What should I call the 800w alternator sitting under the bench and what should I call the 50MVA alternators I worked on during my stint with a supply and generation authority?
One is a small output as compared to the other just like the output of a boat alternator is less then the output of an alternator in a car (usually).
Amount of output has no bearing on what something is called in this line of argument.
Terms are specific.
Google the terms generator, alternator, dynamo and magneto
Generalisations are not specific and misleading.
cheers

I might go and join TOL seeing it's DDD.

[finga]

Well I might jump into this useless conversation. I have worked in Power Stations for most of my life from 30mw to 480mw units and everyone had a generator to make electricity the word alternator was never mentioned anywhere.

So how's that for confusion.

Did you just call them generators?
Truly speaking the complete unit is a generator as it is converting mechanical energy into electrical energy.

What did you call the end of the generator that had the big wires coming out of it?

[Bros]

A couple of examples Generator Circuit Breaker, Generator Transformer, Generator Protection, Generator Earth Fault, Generator Overcurrent, Generator Differential protection, Bearing vibration and bearing temperature sensors were labeled Generator bearing TS (Turbine side) Generator bearing ES ( Exciter side) I could go on but this is a sample.

The bit that drove it was just called the Turbine.

The whole unit was called a TurboGenerator.

That should muddy the water.

[MudRiverDan]

I always thought that a magneto was associated with points, sends a spark per revolution.
Also charge battery like an alternator.

While and alternator just charged the battery soley, and relys on the coil and EFI/chip for spark/timing.


Pretty sure a generator works on the same principles, just is usually heavier and used for DC applications, like supplying intermittent power to a factory or just a high powered drill on back of a truck.

So an alternator is probably cruder or the same as a magneto in design, it just has the help of other technology.

In saying that.. I will throw a spanner.. a generator and a magneto are very similar as the output increases as the rpm increases.

Alternator has a regulator to regulate output.

[finga]

A couple of examples Generator Circuit Breaker, Generator Transformer, Generator Protection, Generator Earth Fault, Generator Overcurrent, Generator Differential protection, Bearing vibration and bearing temperature sensors were labeled Generator bearing TS (Turbine side) Generator bearing ES ( Exciter side) I could go on but this is a sample.

The bit that drove it was just called the Turbine.

The whole unit was called a TurboGenerator.

That should muddy the water.

What did you call the bit the turbine drove?