Use Lower Grade Oil???

[NEWBY]

My mechanic has suggested that with older motors such as mine )1982 Volvo TAMD60B's, 28yo)
That since the rebuild 500 or so hours ago, that I now use Lower grade oil in the motors as 1) I now do a lot of trolling and 2) The newer oils are too good nd will glaze my bores.
I trust him but was wondering if anyone else has had this suggested to them before. He says that the older motors run better and last longer on the less refined oils.
Currently use str8 40 grade premium. He suggests a std 40 grade

[Dave_H]

Newby, if it isn't using oil then I would personally stick with the premium oil over the cheaper alternative. The fact is that if your bores were going to glaze using the expensive oil they would have by now! However that said, there isn't much wrong with standard type oils as made available by Shell, Castrol etc as long as they contain detergents to keep the engine clean and the impurituies in suspension so that your filtration system can do its job. You don't need synthetic based oil types unless you are planning very long intervals between oil changes.

Regards,

Dave

[backlash08]

Hi Newby, I do have some experience in this area, both from a lubrication and diesel engine perspective. What your mechanic is saying is a reasonable argument to a point. The question for me is duty cycle load. Personally I would not use a mono 40 in a volvo engine, it probably will not harm it but the viscosity is a little high and is a little light on in performance when under high load. I would use a VDS2 spec 15W40 from a mainstream supplier (Castrol, Caltex) A VDS2 spec will be high medium to high ash and detergency and this will be important for keeping the piston crown nice and clean as the combustion isnt great in those engines. As I say a mono 40 won't damage it but wont keep it as clean as an engine oil that was developed to run in volvos
cheers - Craig

[FNQCairns]

The old oils spec that was recommended by the manufacturer in years past never hold today, imagine rebuilding a T model ford and running that engine on the manufacturers recommended oil! same holds entirely true for almost any engine built even 15 years ago today.

Even the GQ patrols with a 4.2L engine...the old oil spec recommended to protect the valve train was a rubbish specification almost a year later in comparison with any of the true "global oils" available.

2 things outside of urban myth will glaze a bore, 1 is poor preperation upon rebuild (your past that) and the other is a low quality oil/low grade oil or over extended use of any oil, each will not have the ability to keep the combustion chamber clean of deposits.

It is never the oil that will 'mirror' a bore it's carbon on ring lands and rings that does the polishing, the oil alone cannot do it, the ring face cannot do it and neither can the piston sides, soot held by the oil will not have an effect either although over many many hours it can induce higher rates of bearing wear.

Moral of the story is use the best oil you can find, hard to do in a single wt these days...want the best?? delvac it is, cheaper but still extraordinary dello 400.

Interestingly the above modern oils are more robust, cleaner, better soot hold capacity, lower wear than anything older in spec and especially old AND low grade in spec.

There is heaps more to it but suffice to say if you cannot go for the worlds best oils look for the the standard wt oils with the highest specification and probably add a good dose of cleaner to the tank often....the rules are a lot like old 2 stroke engines....ensure the very top of the rev range is available at all times.

cheers fnq

[NEWBY]

I have spoken to Volvo direct to see if there were any updates as to what oil to use and they said stay with the monograde 40.

[FNQCairns]

I have spoken to Volvo direct to see if there were any updates as to what oil to use and they said stay with the monograde 40.

I might be a little irreverent here you being a dealer and all from my perspective so often what does the manufacturer know.

from BMW and life long fills, to ford and 20-30wt engine oils to e-tec and no gear oil changes needed for up to 3 years from new...heaps of other examples too.

A mono grade is an oil that does not own the elastomers to allow it to cover a range of flow characteristics.

There is nothing stopping a monograde from owning a robust additive pack, a decent TBN and a quality base stock.

Some engine are known to be shear heavily, monograde oils especially suits these engines due to the lack of elasomer included the oil will be more shear stable over time.

Problem with a monograde is finding one with a rock solid track record in the real world (not manufacturer biased) that has been backed up countless times with oil analysis with all particulars peculiar to it's duty...I do not know of one but I have had no need to chase one up for many years.

Completely agree with craig above be sure it's a known good oil, the oil specification originally recommended for that engine will now be a rubbish oil good only for treating timber.

It's not hard for me to know what's best if it where my engine TODAY but it's about what you are open to and why/why not. Appropriatly spaced oil analyses will tell all no matter what oil you choose but even these may not cover you for problem related to oil choice further down the road when the manufacturers have well washed their hands of warranty responsibility's.

cheers fnq

[cormorant]

older motors with wider tollerences in bearings don't take nicely to cold starts with really thin oil in them and they take a while to warm up - that's and the fact some oil pumps perform badly on thin oil are the only reason I have ever been told to use mono in them. Some monogrades are stickier and film the whole internals better when left standing which is a good thing in a marine environment. Constant warm air temps up north would mean no need for multigrades to a large extent in regards to cold starts

Glazing, biggest cause is up to 1000rpm without load constantly equals a glaze of death. Good oils help prevent it and most likely period is on run in after rebuild. Run one motor on the troll to increase the load on it and save you some fuel.

[FNQCairns]

Hey you could have a point there regarding the oil pump, would be engine specific and a good reason why nothing beats targeted research with lots of "why" questions attached.

On the startup thickness of a mono 40wt, i have yet pour a 15w-40 from the bottle at 20deg c and it be thinner than when it is dumped at operating temperature even if that was just 1 hour later. The reason for this is the first and last numbers are not found using the same bench test. The first and second numbers do not relate in any linear way to observable thickness at any temperature.

The 40 part only applies at 100degc and the 15 part only applies at sub zero temperatures....even at sub 0 temperatures an oil with low first number might still be thicker/gluggier than when it is at 20degc but it's ability to slide over it's self at those freezing temperatures will be what accounts for that low first number.

In short the if the water in the engine block is not at risk of freezing then the first number has very little real value and can affectively be ignored here in Oz.

There you have it, in more ways than less every single friction modified oil sold here in OZ is effectively a monograde by default but without the 'potential' added shear stability of a monograde and potential shear stability alone does not a good oil make!

cheers fnq

[cormorant]

I have spoken to Volvo direct to see if there were any updates as to what oil to use and they said stay with the monograde 40.

I don't know the oil pumps on those motors but with older stationary gensets it was always monograde. The pumps were low pressure and turbos etc all had big galleries so the oil got very hot going through. Perhaps the multigrades were breaking down too fast with the constant hot / cold transition in the older turbo motors. The new oil pumps in turbo motors are much higher volume and high pressure or run seperate circuit for turbos.

Always monograde when running in was the old way as well- supposed to help stop glazing as oil "washed" off the bore and assumably additives took carbon with it.


What brand do Volvo suggest out of interest? As noted by others I see some as low quality and looking horrible at normal change periods in stationary motors. Seen as old oils so don't seem to have decent additive packages as they are aiming at the cheaper end of market.

What additives at what intervals ?

FNQ is right about getting oils tested . Only way to see if it is doing it's job. So much to do with oil is marketing and so many oils are just average.

Out of interest what cruise revs do you run em at and what is WOT. 1800rpm-2000rpm and 2800 wide open.

Later motors have a few more temp sensors and alarms it might be worth retrofitting as it may show early signs of failure or issues. Have seen a turbo shatter on those and a engine room fire - big expensive mess.and no warning .

[NEWBY]

WOW interesting returns and answers. I made another call after reading these.
Apparently it is to do with the whole package inc oil pumps and lift pumps etc that are also fed from the motor oil. As it was a rebuild, I gave it over 500 hours before setting the troll or idling for lengthy periods. The reasoning behind the lower grade is becasue I do a lot of trolling now and made comment to my mechanic about the smoke when I had to back down or just drop the hammer. Back of the boat is sooting up. He made some calls etc etc and here we are.
Thanks fellas for some great input and not 1 argument...Now theres a nice change eh?
Volve were great too. The old fella in Brissy service was fantastic. Spoken to him before a while back.
I did not get a specific brand to use although Valvoline and Castrol were the 2 mentioned adlib.
when cruising I sit on 2500-2600rpm and when trolling anywhere from 900-1500 tide and wind dependant.
Injectors, lift pumps and turbos were rebuilt recently.

[Greg P]

I would stick to the same oil at all times. You have got to be aware of what additive packages are in the oil and just what effect they may have on oil coolers etc. You can certainly see some strange results from samples when people change brands / types in marine applications. The manufacture sets the recommended oil type for a reason.

It is far more important to build some oil sample history to see some trend patterns of wear.

Black smoke is unburnt fuel - all the more reason to monitor your oil condition and ensure that fuel system is in order (injectors, rack settings, air/fuel ratio controllers etc on older non electronic governed engines) or it could just be the nature of the beast.

[FNQCairns]

Can i give you a specific oil to consider,

http://www.caltex.com.au/products_oil_detail.asp?id=23

Rule of thumb is if it is not an industry recognised HDEO then it's nothing more than a passenger car oil with all the marketing to the public, cheap additives, cheap base stocks and the list goes on...there are a few rare exceptions.

Now you have the weight chosen just be sure to pick the oil with the highest/best specification as it will be worlds apart from what the manufacturer originally recommended for the engine and quite possibly still does.

Today the sulfur in diesel is so low it makes for potential large improvements in longevity if a high specification quality oil is chosen.

There are other hdeo monograde diesel engine oil out there that are worthy also, the valvoline ..forget about it.

I had a look at castrol and not knowing your volvo engine type I guessed one and Caltex came up with this...curiouselyit opted for a multigrade.

VOLVO PENTADiesel MD96B, TMD96B1 Crankcase CASTROL SEAMAX SUPER PLUS
Castrol Seamax Super Plus is an SAE 15W-40 mineral based premium quality lubricant for use in turbocharged and naturally aspirated marine diesel engines. Castrol Seamax Super Plus is suitable for use in both European and U.S style diesel engines where a lubricant meeting API CI-4, ACEA E3/E5/B3 or VDS-3 is required.


Wouldn't touch it over a dello 400 though.

cheers fnq

[NEWBY]

Can i give you a specific oil to consider,

http://www.caltex.com.au/products_oil_detail.asp?id=23

Rule of thumb is if it is not an industry recognised HDEO then it's nothing more than a passenger car oil with all the marketing to the public, cheap additives, cheap base stocks and the list goes on...there are a few rare exceptions.

Now you have the weight chosen just be sure to pick the oil with the highest/best specification as it will be worlds apart from what the manufacturer originally recommended for the engine and quite possibly still does.

Today the sulfur in diesel is so low it makes for potential large improvements in longevity if a high specification quality oil is chosen.

There are other hdeo monograde diesel engine oil out there that are worthy also, the valvoline ..forget about it.

I had a look at castrol and not knowing your volvo engine type I guessed one and Caltex came up with this...curiouselyit opted for a multigrade.

VOLVO PENTADiesel MD96B, TMD96B1 Crankcase CASTROL SEAMAX SUPER PLUS
Castrol Seamax Super Plus is an SAE 15W-40 mineral based premium quality lubricant for use in turbocharged and naturally aspirated marine diesel engines. Castrol Seamax Super Plus is suitable for use in both European and U.S style diesel engines where a lubricant meeting API CI-4, ACEA E3/E5/B3 or VDS-3 is required.


Wouldn't touch it over a dello 400 though.

cheers fnq

see earlier post, TAMD60B's
Has to be a str8 40 grade.

[backlash08]

Guys, as per the questions on oil 'thickness' as a rough guide a mono 40 is ~160 Cst @ 40C and and a 15/40 multi is ~100Cst @ 40C so the viscosity (as measured in centerstokes) of a mono 40 is significantly higher, nothing more than an FYI
cheers - Craig

[FNQCairns]

see earlier post, TAMD60B's
Has to be a str8 40 grade.

It's interesting because castrol doesn't differentiate and specifys 15w-40 for all the Volvo diesels that i found, including the tamd60c which seems to be the identical engine but bored out with a few extra HP as a result.

I am often curious as to why an oil is recommended for any particular older engine as 90% of the time it forces all modern known understandings to be cast aside in this strict strict adherence esp at the manufacturer or manufacturer service level the problem is rife, each to their own and as this got me curiouse I did some searching but came up with nothing that would stop a person from using any HDEO 15w40 even...all just out of interest anyway, a HDEO modern single wt40 is fine.

On your smoke it does seem that this may be more or less par for the course with this engine but somewhere I came across a sparse reference to how very often the injector pump timing service specification is written as 2 deg out and if set to this incorrect it will smoke black more than it should.

cheers fnq