Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

[gaz066]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

JM, thanks for the confirmation on lure action and lure 'sweet spot' comments , apologies for the flipant comment around brissy river tides etc , I actually use the current flow to identify eddys etc around structure above and below the waterline and have had some early success on the threadfin salmon in between barra trips. Looks like I can get some more practice regularly!
I'll also take on board your comments around the 'sonic signature' a lure may posses if worked correctly. Up until now I have concentrated mainly on the best physical action (look) a lure may have if worked a certain way.

cheers Parksy

[BR65]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

Take the technique discussion to the other end of the spectrum, and lets look at fish caught trolling.
There is minimal to no working of a lure here by the majority of trollers (Im excluding those who have a think about the whys and wheres when trolling), apart from altering boat speed, or an angler "rip" on the rod. The 2 combined will offer an option over fish found on the sounder.
So a fish sees/hears/feels a relatively constant offering, with no pause, sideways jink, rise or fall, and little time to react to what is in the feeding window for that short period of time.
Still a highly successfull method of catching fish, yet we put so much into lure mods and retrieve technique?

[A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

So a fish sees/hears/feels a relatively constant offering, with no pause, sideways jink, rise or fall, and little time to react to what is in the feeding window for that short period of time.
Still a highly successfull method of catching fish, yet we put so much into lure mods and retrieve technique?
Yea, those fish are the hungry ones, the other 90% of the time anglers work hard to catch the ones that are not in the rip tear bust feed mode. Angler skill, lure mods, lure retrieve patterns come to life in this regard to hassle those fish into striking. Day time charter angling 365 days a year requires a lot more than just chuck and troll etc. The art of successful lure fishing/casting comes from all the twitch, bounce, free fall, stop start motion. Hungry or reactive fish eat constantly moving lures. Fish that aren't, don't!
Johnny
Brian I wrote a mega article on fishing which included the answer to your question; over at 'sweetwaterfishing.com'. called, Under the Spotlight- the big picture.

[A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

Here are a few snippets from the mammoth article that will give more info on the subject.

It isn't hard to note who is actually 'fishing' and who is just applying basic straight winding principles. The noteworthy high class anglers don't straight wind- they fish artistically- they also win!


Hunger, Instinct, Curiosity. In some species of fish there is also what they call agression strikes. In my years of barra experience I do not believe aggression strikes exist, but there are many ways to stimulate the mind of a fish to make it open it's mouth and bite your lure. With the instinctive and curious nature of landlocked barra being tested severely over the years, it has forced many fish to think twice or instinctively refrain from striking lures in that form, so all of a sudden it leaves hunger as the main contributor to why they may eat your lure. But here is the tricky part. Millions of lures have been cast, trolled and jigged around our barra lakes. The fish have just about seen and heard all of the common lures and they certainly know they are fake or offer adverse experiences. What they also know is that most get worked or retrieved in the same mundane, simple way that simply does not fit in with the way that barramundi like their food items presented in the real world. So what is the catch? Do anglers ever stop and wonder how the barramundi's food items move about in a lake and what favoured ways barra like to see little fishies, shrimps, yabbies move? etc Has anyone swum with them to watch? Do we stop and take into account the physical set-up of the predator itself and understand what may be a suitable way to offer it dinner and do we even think about it's agility or lack of when we serve it a fake fish. Do we mimmick common media too much? Oh hell yes, most do. Unfortunately, "monkey see, monkey do" is a dangerous catch phrase that fits so well.
What I am getting at is if we all just cast lures and work them in a straight plane back to the boat we are hoping for a fish to come forth and attack and intercept. What if it isn't in the mood to come forth and attack? How will you ever get that fish to respond? What about a fish tucked away under a snag or deep in a weed pocket or under some lillies, how will you get a lure closer to that fish in order to tempt it's mind?
The number of anglers that I see just throw and wind or throw and work lures so simply defies the wonders of nature and the real world within, especially in modern pressured barra lakes in the so called "modern world" of 2009. Sure, we can catch fish via the 'instinct and curiosity' clause as mentioned but in the scheme of things we should be trying to find trigger points in a retrieve that push a fish over the edge; we need buttons to press to make things happen. We need to be crafty. The Taylors are artist's there. I don't mean spy on the boys, which some do, but I mean fine tune yourself and self diagnose your fishing. Think Wisely. It is what they did; all done in their teenage years.
Watch what food items do naturally in a waterway. Do they swim in straight lines?- Not for very long distances. Do they continually swim and never stop? Food fish in barra lakes rarely stop for extensive periods, but they do stop, weave, about face, flutter, roll, rise, fall, pick at weed and structure and lah de dah dee dah. etc etc.
So, why do I make a fuss over simple retrieves?; quite simply because fish need to be fairly hungry and willing or unpressured to come forth and make aggrivated attack on a lure presented this way. Trolling falls into this category as well as casting. What about the days when fish aren't so keen? Pauses in retrieves are mighty additions with soft and hard bodied lures. Now just have a think about what this may do to any soft or hard bodied lure tracking in a straight line. Taking buoyancy into account, it will most likely either see the lure rise or fall. Simply, the result is changed movement and vibration. In reality, how long an angler leaves a lure to stay motionless or in one spot, or allowed to free fall is restricted only by the operator's perception of what is normal, commonly done, or reasonable. How many anglers have hooked a good fish when they have either stopped to scratch their nose, adjust the motor, have a drink, etc etc etc? The clues within these occurrences are mighty. If ignored and laughed off as a funny occurrence we will never grasp the potential of our catching ability. The basis of this article is not to have you not think outside the square, but to jump outside the square and come up with your own answers. It seems that if we get handed good info on a silver platter that a lot of it gets ignored and overlooked because it is not mainstream or easily digestable. If you want simple explanations, you will never see the big picture, and to be blunt it will pretty much secure your place playing in lower grades compared to those with the drive, motivation and smarts who will give themselves the best chance to compete at a higher personal level and catch more fish. Those who want to learn will source extra information to help improve catch results, but I have given vital clues above and within that if taken into consideration will assist keen anglers to improve results.
The art of successful angling in my eyes is not being able to fish like a machine, but by being able to identify the detail that makes us better fish catchers or hunters. All of this information lays before us, we must teach ourselves to pull out fine microscopes and pick up the clues and piece it together. If no one is searching for vital clues, no one is advancing and we'll be stuck with simple analogies from the industry. As a fishing guide, it is safe to say that what is learnt can be taught over time on deep topics likes lake barra, and everything else can be sourced- the internet is a great tool to start with.
Leading barra anglers fine tune their lures- a job that isn't done effectively in the manufacturing stage of a lot of product labels. Once the manufacturers take the next step and assist, angler skill levels will take a leap also. Fine tuning will still always take place and it is a special need for the average 'Joe Bloe' to do so at present when they take on the challenge of lake fishing; a job they really shouldn't have to do when they part with good dollars for apparent top products. Some plastic company representatives recommend alternate methods to get the lure to swim better because of inferior design or a not so savvy product packaging or manufacture material. Soft lures chucked in a bag and sold, as is, isn't a good start. In fact, it is bloody hopeless and useless to anyone. It is common to not even find one good lure in about ten out of a bag of soft plastics,,,"if ya lucky". Bent bodies and curled up tails are useless fish catchers even on the ' better than average' days. The average packet doesn't tell you to fix this problem. In my eyes, it's a big downfall for anglers wanting to try their luck. It's like selling broken beer bottles in a carton. It is a blatant disregard, in my eyes. Do anglers experiment by adding glass rattle chambers to their choice of soft plastics? When stimulation is the key to success, subtle variations in lure sound and frequency can prove to be deadly with desirable results. A simple improvement with little effort.

JM

[gaz066]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

Bryan, I agree trolling is a very effective method for some but frankly not my preferred option. I'm surprised you would jump so quickly to the ‘other end of the spectrum’ (let’s call it the ‘opposite’ side to this particular discussion) rather than expand on or work thru various retrieve patterns.

I must have missed the point of your post , can you expand further ?

[BR65]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

So a fish sees/hears/feels a relatively constant offering, with no pause, sideways jink, rise or fall, and little time to react to what is in the feeding window for that short period of time.
Still a highly successfull method of catching fish, yet we put so much into lure mods and retrieve technique?
Yea, those fish are the hungry ones, the other 90% of the time anglers work hard to catch the ones that are not in the rip tear bust feed mode. Angler skill, lure mods, lure retrieve patterns come to life in this regard to hassle those fish into striking. Day time charter angling 365 days a year requires a lot more than just chuck and troll etc. The art of successful lure fishing/casting comes from all the twitch, bounce, free fall, stop start motion. Hungry or reactive fish eat constantly moving lures. Fish that aren't, don't!
Johnny
Brian I wrote a mega article on fishing which included the answer to your question; over at 'sweetwaterfishing.com'. called, Under the Spotlight- the big picture.

John, saw that article, one of my fav reads, a long side fishing the fridge. You more than any one would have witnessed some of the carnage on acitve fish in open water, makes you think, if these were the hungry fish, how many more were there and not participating? Nath, remember Feb 08 in the basin?

Bryan, I agree trolling is a very effective method for some but frankly not my preferred option. I'm surprised you would jump so quickly to the ‘other end of the spectrum’ (let’s call it the ‘opposite’ side to this particular discussion) rather than expand on or work thru various retrieve patterns.

I must have missed the point of your post , can you expand further ?

Gazz, some one gave me a viper, and I can only think of one thing to do with it - troll! (OK - 2 things - troll or burn, but we have a fire ban at the moment!)
OK, I guess heres my point.
I tweak, mod, glue, weight, un-weight, trial, discard, and repeat the process to multiple presentations, usually done on a Sunday arvo in the shed with a big tub of water, split ring pliers, sticky weight from the golf shop, a few packs of differant sized Owners and splits, and some araldite. Oh to be close to a barra dam, where I could just drop the tinny in any time to prove or dis-prove what Im thinking, instead of stewing on shite for a month or 2, then having SFA time to play trial and error when I get their.
I scratch my head when some one smacks them, just dragging an un-modified lure around on what is basically a speeded up slow roll.
Trollers, keep it to your self please, Im not interested, you do what you want, I'll do what I want what - start your own thread on trolling technique if that rocks your boat.
Retreive paterns - I got nuthin mate, only what I have used and seen work.
My current favorite HB is a B52 tweaked to suspend, this one particular lure is just perfect with #1 Owners front and back, and Halco fish rings. I have a love/hate relationship with this lure, love it because it attracts a lot of barra, hate it because it seems to drop a lot of barra, despite every thing I do re rod angles, double striking, etc etc. I used to have a Storm Mid Thunder that did the same, any one seen that up In A Bay? Great lure for differant water depth.
This lure responds best to a 3 twitch, pause, IMHO, but differant water temps dictate the agressiveness of the twitch, the hotter the water, the harder I twitch, looking for the magical active fish!. Others I know love a slow roll only on a B52?
The Gaddens Classic is another that I use, not so much now days though with wised up fish and rattling lures. It has a differant characteristic all together with its buoancy, and retrieves are a lot faster/harder - a real summer lure, and one I tie on in hot water and heavy timber. In saying that though, Ive had good success with this lure with over sized owners (heavier than VMC trebles) and double splits, and no middle hardware, and just useing a long, slow, down wards stroke, utilizing the rattle more than anything.
I looked in the bag this arvo, and noted a lot more timber and non-rattling lures in their, Richos and others, and these are fished differant again.

Arent we sposed to be talking aboput locations and timing?

[Dick Pasfield]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

The missing link here that is the common denominator on all lure delivery techniques, that is the rod and reel combined with angler cranking capacity/comfort.

Like different lures your rod/reel/arm combinations and have a sweet spot as well. A small 5' baitcaster with a reel capable of placing only about 40cm of line per revouloution is going to struggle to swim a 'fast' lure like a scorpion effectively down current. Swap to a 'slower' lure like a classic barra or pro and the job gets easier. The initial combo working against or side on to the current is a much different story.

Working with this in mind you'll tend to group tackle and lures together with some degree of modification on the day to take into account conditions.

[Big_Ren]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

The missing link here that is the common denominator on all lure delivery techniques, that is the rod and reel combined with angler cranking capacity/comfort.

Like different lures your rod/reel/arm combinations and have a sweet spot as well. A small 5' baitcaster with a reel capable of placing only about 40cm of line per revouloution is going to struggle to swim a 'fast' lure like a scorpion effectively down current. Swap to a 'slower' lure like a classic barra or pro and the job gets easier. The initial combo working against or side on to the current is a much different story.

Working with this in mind you'll tend to group tackle and lures together with some degree of modification on the day to take into account conditions.

Thanks Dick. I recall that Johnny refers to this as "balancing harmonics".......some outfits just don't go together plain and simple for anyone to see, but there are others with less discernable traits that are not as easy to pick as "singing the right song together, in tune". Add in the other factors you mention, particularly the lure itself, the way it swims and reacts to angler input, and it opens up myriad possibilities, including the possibility of turning a gun outfit into an absolute dog, just by a lure swap, or changing line strengths.

The mind keeps boggling trying to get these harmonics right.......isn't that the fun part? Trying to get it all right.

Cheers and have a safe Christmas to you and your loved ones.

Paul

[gaz066]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

Gazz, some one gave me a viper, and I can only think of one thing to do with it - troll! (OK - 2 things - troll or burn, but we have a fire ban at the moment!)
OK, I guess heres my point.
I tweak, mod, glue, weight, un-weight, trial, discard, and repeat the process to multiple presentations, usually done on a Sunday arvo in the shed with a big tub of water, split ring pliers, sticky weight from the golf shop, a few packs of differant sized Owners and splits, and some araldite. Oh to be close to a barra dam, where I could just drop the tinny in any time to prove or dis-prove what Im thinking, instead of stewing on shite for a month or 2, then having SFA time to play trial and error when I get their.
I scratch my head when some one smacks them, just dragging an un-modified lure around on what is basically a speeded up slow roll.
Trollers, keep it to your self please, Im not interested, you do what you want, I'll do what I want what - start your own thread on trolling technique if that rocks your boat.
Retreive paterns - I got nuthin mate, only what I have used and seen work.
My current favorite HB is a B52 tweaked to suspend, this one particular lure is just perfect with #1 Owners front and back, and Halco fish rings. I have a love/hate relationship with this lure, love it because it attracts a lot of barra, hate it because it seems to drop a lot of barra, despite every thing I do re rod angles, double striking, etc etc. I used to have a Storm Mid Thunder that did the same, any one seen that up In A Bay? Great lure for differant water depth.
This lure responds best to a 3 twitch, pause, IMHO, but differant water temps dictate the agressiveness of the twitch, the hotter the water, the harder I twitch, looking for the magical active fish!. Others I know love a slow roll only on a B52?
The Gaddens Classic is another that I use, not so much now days though with wised up fish and rattling lures. It has a differant characteristic all together with its buoancy, and retrieves are a lot faster/harder - a real summer lure, and one I tie on in hot water and heavy timber. In saying that though, Ive had good success with this lure with over sized owners (heavier than VMC trebles) and double splits, and no middle hardware, and just useing a long, slow, down wards stroke, utilizing the rattle more than anything.
I looked in the bag this arvo, and noted a lot more timber and non-rattling lures in their, Richos and others, and these are fished differant again.

Arent we sposed to be talking aboput locations and timing?

Bryan, I get where your coming at now , thanks for expanding.

We put in all this effort with mods tuning etc and a lure straight out of the packet towed around can and will catch fish.

Does make you wonder but there are some 'expert' trollers out there that no doubt have advanced methods ..............maybe the fish we are talking about are the hungry fish and you can catch one or two fish.

Catching one or two hungry fish (casting) when they are on the chew is OK and that's probably the level I am at now , catching 4 or 5 fish a session when they are not on the chew thru a tough bite period is the challenge and a skill level I ( and no doubt others) would like to develop.

Seems like the 'technique' discussion may have run it's course atm so maybe time to move to timing.

Apart from the obvious dawn and dusk period there are some other bite periods or 'windows' throughout the day on the water. I useful skill would be able to definitively pick them.

What is a fish 'window' ?

Is it ....

A change in a wind direction?
Wind speed lull ?
Wind 'channel' or lane that comes across the water at times?
Obvious increase in bait activity ?
The water takes on a different shape?
gut feel ?
All of the above ?


what else ?


Parksy

[gaz066]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

The missing link here that is the common denominator on all lure delivery techniques, that is the rod and reel combined with angler cranking capacity/comfort.

Like different lures your rod/reel/arm combinations and have a sweet spot as well. A small 5' baitcaster with a reel capable of placing only about 40cm of line per revouloution is going to struggle to swim a 'fast' lure like a scorpion effectively down current. Swap to a 'slower' lure like a classic barra or pro and the job gets easier. The initial combo working against or side on to the current is a much different story.

Working with this in mind you'll tend to group tackle and lures together with some degree of modification on the day to take into account conditions.

Thanks Dick. I recall that Johnny refers to this as "balancing harmonics".......some outfits just don't go together plain and simple for anyone to see, but there are others with less discernable traits that are not as easy to pick as "singing the right song together, in tune". Add in the other factors you mention, particularly the lure itself, the way it swims and reacts to angler input, and it opens up myriad possibilities, including the possibility of turning a gun outfit into an absolute dog, just by a lure swap, or changing line strengths.

The mind keeps boggling trying to get these harmonics right.......isn't that the fun part? Trying to get it all right.

Cheers and have a safe Christmas to you and your loved ones.

Paul

Good call Gentleman , I would like to think that all my gear is 'balanced' but in reality it is probably only balanced ( or has a sweet spot ) for a specific lure weight or action

[NAGG]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

Good call Gentleman , I would like to think that all my gear is 'balanced' but in reality it is probably only balanced ( or has a sweet spot ) for a specific lure weight or action

When you look at the US bass market ( tackle) ...... you really do see how advanced they are with regard to technique & lure specific rod designs ......... They design their rods to get the most out of a lures action or the technique used ..... by either taper , blends of glass / graphite , rod length or all . Rods are designated by technique & lure weight (& line class) ....... while here we concentrate on line class predominantly - - - - This makes it pretty difficult to pick an ideal rod for say fishing shallow crank baits , heavy swim baits or topwater frogs (its often hit & miss) ......... I certainly feel that we have so much to learn & a long way to go with our barra tackle

Chris

(some of our custom rod builders do good work with their designs)

[Plasticin]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

Bryan, I get where your coming at now , thanks for expanding.

We put in all this effort with mods tuning etc and a lure straight out of the packet towed around can and will catch fish.

Does make you wonder but there are some 'expert' trollers out there that no doubt have advanced methods ..............maybe the fish we are talking about are the hungry fish and you can catch one or two fish.

Catching one or two hungry fish (casting) when they are on the chew is OK and that's probably the level I am at now , catching 4 or 5 fish a session when they are not on the chew thru a tough bite period is the challenge and a skill level I ( and no doubt others) would like to develop.

Seems like the 'technique' discussion may have run it's course so maybe time to move to timing.

Apart from the obvious dawn and dusk period there are some other bite periods or 'windows' throughout the day on the water. I useful skill would be able to definitively pick them.

What is a fish 'window' ?

Is it ....

A change in a wind direction?
Wind speed lull ?
Wind 'channel' or lane that comes across the water at times?
Obvious increase in bait activity ?
The water takes on a different shape?
gut feel ?
All of the above ?


what else ?


Parksy

This is a great thread mate and something that we don't seem to see much on this site these days. You are obviously quite a thinking angler. I will have a go at answering the above.

All my experience in terms of bite "windows" have occurred during changes in wind. The first instance that I can remember was with Lyndon at Awoonga just before the ABT last year. The current was hitting a point and creating a dirty water line. You could see it extend out over 50meters. When this dirty water line reached its crescendo, the fish started to bite. As soon as the current decreased and the dirty water line receded the bite stopped.

Another experience I can recall was during a recent stint at Kinchant dam. The fish went ballistic for a 30 minute period right on dusk one afternoon. Obviously when the fishing is that good you finish work early the next day so that you there and ready to fish the next afternoon. This time the bite occurred 30 mins after dusk. In fact I had nearly gone home. I headed out again the following afternoon and this time it was right on dusk again. Obviously the bite occurred near on dusk however the fish "stopped" biting as soon as the water turned to glass. The bite lasted as the wind was dropping.

These are two instances which I can recall a distinct bite window occurring and these both relate to wind/current changes. I will be interested to hear some of the more experienced anglers opinions. Hopefully the knowledge doesn't get drowned out.

Scott

[A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

Scott, (Potato Man)
You are on the right path with the right info. *More on that later if others are keen to discuss.
Each lake has multiple fishing environments within, so 'bite windows' occur for differing reasons at each. There are quite a few combinations of variables required to make each spot work and an individual trigger to kick start it, and the bite window can often be picked right down to less than 15-30 seconds as to when a barra will strike. Wind movement, temp change, current intensity and light intensity are some of the key triggers.
Johnny

[Dick Pasfield]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

Bite windows, sometimes easy to see what the trigger is, sometimes just about impossible. So it seems logical that the trigger is not always a visual thing. Light intensity fading of brightening, water temp or a combination of both might give 20 minutes of activity reliably each day until other factors come into play.

Whatever the triggers it pays to be there if you can when the bite initiates so you are a part of the environment when it happens.

Watch a croc work a drain, sits there forever like part of the furniture so when the tide changes and the fish fire up the croc is temporarily forgotten

[NAGG]

Re: Barra Basics – Pop Quiz

So what are these bite windows ? - How are they identified ?