Are boaties polluting waterways as much as the Pacific Adventurer

[PADDLES]

good points timi, the boating pollution comparison is definitely sensationalised somewhat, but it's there nonetheless and isn't going away.

i at least think we should give simon baltais a go with this. agreed, what politicians say and then do are usually two totally different things (and i generally agree on the spitting rat theory), but when they say and don't do, that's when the media usually have a field day on them. we should save the ammo for when he doesn't deliver.

[Damned67]

While it's a large undertaking, could the use of 2 strokes in SEQ be better estimated by the sales of 'marine' 2 stroke oil?
How many different oil distributors are there? A few.
We don't need individual point-of-sales numbers, just how much the distributors are moving. That'll give a much better estimate (but no where near perfect).

I appreciate Mr Fook's concern, and the fact, with the numbers that he's used for his calculations, that he was 'conservative'.... but it seems that we could quite easily remove a lot of the 'guesstimations'.

[oldboot]

Sorry but the figures that Mr Fooks produced can not be considered conservative at all......the string of figures and the whole premiss behind his discussion simply does not stand up.

The errors inherant in much of the "data" make those figures so unreliable as to be useless for anything but passing amusement.

There is no relationship between two stroke use and major oil spills they are two completely different issues that can not be compared...

You may as well compre fat content in the parliment house chips and and an oil spill.

There is no practical way of measuing or even reliably estimating recreational power boat usage.
Recreational powerboats require no log books or reporting on usage, and generaly have no hour meter or odometer.

If boat ramp surveys were taken, the figures would grossly be weighted to the regular and high hours usage and larger boat end of the spectrum in a way that could not be reliably predicted or estimated.

The emmission figures quoted by the manufacturers are measured in a laboratory and designed to give an indication of the motors performance under specified conditions in an effort to quantify something that is very variable for the purpose of regulation and sale.

These figures can not be used as a reliable indication of environmental impact because we can not reliably predict how motors are used in reality.

Yes doing some sort of audit on two stroke fuel consumption, at point of purchase is about as close as you would get.
But even then you will find a great number of variable factors.....different types of two stroke oil, different types of motors, the variability of performance, consumption and emmission of different oils used in a given motor .....

and especilay different levels of consumption of two stroke oil, an old "Seagull" motor mixes at 10 to 1....most reasonably recent motors ( last 20 years) mix at less than 20 to 1.....almost all of the non pre mix motors change their mix rate with RPM and may be as low as 60 to 1.
As for premix.....manufacturers recommendations vary and people argue about the mix ratio all the time.

The leaner the mix the lower proportion of oil input that will be emitted.

So there may be as much as a 6 to 1 ratio of error in the emmission figures derived from oil sold.
And that does not account for wastage or use of marine two stroke outside the marine market.

Again there is no question most of us would prefeer to use a new technology, cleaner and more economical motor.

But trying to justify anything espeilay some sort of ban on the basis of a pile of figures with a very high error rate... amd comparing that to a completly unrelated event, is both ludicris and intelectulay dishonest.

Then we have to look at evidence...........we do not see any evidence that Two stroke motors are having any sort of similar effect to a major oil spill.

It simply is not reasonable or sensible.

Thare are on the other hand, plainly visable and obvious impacts of ither things such as mud churn, siltation and turbidity, chemical run off from the land, hard rubbish such as plastic bags and such running off from the land and being thrown overboard.

If you want to ban something.....ban the plastic bait bag.

cheers

[Damned67]

Oldboot,
I agree completely, ban plastic bags... and for that matter, all the excess packaging that comes with EVERYTHING!

I do need to clarify what I meant by 'conservative'....basically, I meant 'conservative' in Fooks eyes when relating to his given calculations:

"Now industry says the typical outboard does 100hrs per annum. Some less, some more. So lets be conservative and call that only 50 hours.

There are over 200,000 Registered boats in Qld. (source Qld Transport) And that doesn’t count the small unregistered ones. Now we know in 2005 that 55% of sales were 0 or 1 star. (Source OEDA/ DEWHA Report)

So lets be real conservative and say that just 100,000 boats do only 50 hours p.a and an extra 3kg of emissions – mostly Hydrocarbons
That’s 100,000 x 50 x 3 = 15,000,000 kg per annum that we wouldn’t have if only 3 star outboards were allowed. That’s 15,000 tonnes.

The Pacific Adventurer oil spill was 250 tonnes. So based on the above that’s 60 oil spills a year that comes from outboards - or more than one a week.

NOW my estimates were far more conservative, and detailed. So when I conclude ONE oil spill a month in Qld (not one a week) then I am being conservative."

I certainly don't think any of his numbers are 'conservative' in my own eyes.
For example, no one that I know (personally) uses their boats as much as I use mine. I average at least once a week, and according to my GPS log, I'd be lucky to make 100hrs a year of actual running time. My actual running time is typically much less than 1hr per trip.
I merely meant that he could have sensationalised his figures much more.

[FNQCairns]

Years ago but not that long ago! the average was an estimated 30h per year, 50 was for the high users and 100 was way way up there for recreational use...I don't expect too much to have changed...the hulls are no better, the hp effectively the same for each hull. It could have even gotten even less....considering the hurdles all governess has put on the common bloke just to make the time, ends meet or fullfill all expected requirements, in comparison anyway.

He does though choose a 15hp engine and the smaller engines are known to be hour hungry for age in comparison to the bigger ones for the obvious reason it can easily take twice as long to travel the same distance.

cheers fnq

[Sandman]

It amazes me how much focus is placed on boaties fisho's as being the polluters as for the figures what a crock of sh*t !!! Oldboot is on the money about oil run off etc even my klandrover wouldnt leak that much oil in a year But it leaks on the occassion as Landies do and of course that would hit the roads i drive etc, i have owned a number of clasic cars most have had oil leaks - no talk of outlawing them is there . There is more pollution caused to watrerways from machinary and plants away from the water than on the water!!
Yep 2 strokes etc may push out oil etc but not what Fooks has quoted , think he has been sniffing the fuel!!!

[JIMBO99]

JIMBO99 I have never seen a black floating oil mass behind my 40hp two stroke Yamaha such as was spilled from the Pacific Adventurer. and I have never heard such rubbish as these greenies spout regarding two stroke motors. To start with what happens to the oil from an oil change in a four stroke outboard ? put in a plastic bottle and dumped somewhere?? Oils is oils mate unfortunately we live in an oil powered world. Most of us use our outboards about once every two to three weeks take a fair while to use 270,000 tons of heavy black oil at that rate mate. Love Jimbo.

[Hornblower]

Hi fellow Ausfish lovers,

I heard Gary Fooks interviewed and I have some questions about this issue, the answers to which, I think, would put all this in perspective:

1) Who paid/funded Mr Fooks to do this research?

2) What agenda was there with the conducting of this research by the facilitaors of it?

3) What benchmark figures did he use for working out his figures and where did he get the stats from (We all know that a large percentage of recreational boats of only get used half a dozen times/year or less).

Call me suspicious, but I see an emerging pattern here:

1) The Federal Govt's emerging ETS debacle which is going to rape this nation of its wealth and trading rights;
2) The fact that both federal and state govts have huge debts to pay which are probably going to be a legacy for our grandchildren - )could there be more taxes as well as regulatory restrictions for us fishos??)
3) The state Govt wanting downplay its bungling of the Pacific Adventurer incident (what better way than having some pencild!ck saying us fishos are doing things on the same scale every month)

Unfortunately I think it boils down to money - I can see another tax/levy placed on us to pay for our wayward ways with more regulation for us on the immediate horizon. Its a wonder we aren't being blamed for the low rainfall as well.

Cheers,

Horny

[oldboot]

Just raising an old thread from the dead.

this comparison of modern biodegradable two stroke with any other oil is just a crock.

I yanked the motor off the back of the boat a while ago.....and what with the two stroke oil and hydraulic steering pipes and such...some oil got spilled... bothe two stroke and hydraulic

I soaked up most of it with my spill kit........bucket of sand & diatomite.

but some was still on the cement apron of my shed.......so it starts raining and water comes spilling out of the bungs of the boat onto the remaining oil spill..

well it was obviouis which was which...two stroke green and hydraulic normal oil colour.

the two stroke started to break up in front of my eyes where the light hydraulic oil maintained its firm grip on the concrete.

When I get some time I'll do a test with tcw3 two stroke in a bottle of water and see what happens compared to conventional oil.

cheers

[Daisy Burnett]

Really this guy should stop dramatising the matter. Yes a boat with a motor any motor is going to put some waste into the sea. But really 270,000 lt of straight fuel oil get a grip. You want to see real pollution go to the countries that still dump their garbage out to sea by the 100 tonne load. Really boaties are small potatoes compared to some countries out there. But wait of course..... Boaties dont have a real voice to complain so lets pick on them they cant fight back. Pick on a major country @#$! no they might complain and I could get in trouble. This guy cam bite me.

Love
Daisy