Any lawyers out there???

[finga]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

When I was learning to drive all those many years ago my pop taught me....give way to anything bigger then ya 'cause your gunna get squished if ya play chicken with 'em.

I reckon it would apply in this instance as well

[toecutter]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

It's only conjecture that the girl wasn't keeping a lookout at this stage. It's pretty much lay down messaire for the ship's crew though 'cos they clobbered her.

If she was counting Z's in a high traffic area with the AIS receiver turned off, then we can only hope someone fire-bombs her boat before it makes a splash again.

Colregs only applicable when there is risk of a collision? I'll guess I'll keep my nav lights off from now on until someone's about to run into me (unless their boat is smaller than my boat 'cos then they will be in the wrong anyhow). I reckon as soon as you untie from the dock / drop the boat off the trailer there's risk of collision.

If it was me, I would've been further out to sea.

[Mindi]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

It looks like it could be 24 nm according to the "Contiguous zone" at this site:

http://www.ag.gov.au/www/agd/agd.nsf/Page/InternationalLaw_AustraliasMaritimeBoundariesandZones#2

...With the Jessica Watson vs ship thingy, I emit an audible groan every time I hear it mentioned that the lass collided with the ship. In actual fact the ship collided with her. The COLREGS are the rules of the sea, and nowhere in the COLREGS does it state that "the smaller vessel unconditionally gives way to the larger vessel", This would be akin to the road rules having a "rule" that says you have to stop at a green light to give way to the truck approaching the red light because he is "bigger and less manouverable" then you.

No matter how big the ship, the mere size of it alone does not restrict it's ability to manouver. The whole "restricted in ability to manouver" bit is referring to any vessels constrained by draught (as in if they change course, they run aground) or by some operation e.g. dredging, fishing or towing that, well, restricts their ability to manouver.

Some might be surprised that the COLREGS do, in fact, have a rule that states that power gives way to sail and other non motorised powered vessels unconditional to the relative sizes of the vessels. It also states that a vessel that has the right of way must "stand on". To stand on means to maintain course. Jessica Watson's boat was equipped with - from what i can gather and I could be wrong - radar and AIS so it could conceivably come out in the wash that she was maintaining lookout and simply standing on. Her one and only mistake being to leave it too late to take action to avoid a collision - quite a feasible scenario considering that at night it is extremely difficult to estimate distance and heading of vessels in open water by eye.

It may also be that Jessica didn't maintain a lookout. If this is the case neither did the ship's watch and they also failed to give way.

Yeah but the "stand on" rule only applies up to the point of imminent collision when the duty falls to both skippers to do whatever to avoid the collision. Hard to do that if you have gone to sleep on autopilot in a major shipping area..!
And the manouvreing question isnt just about draught as you suggest.... it also includes the fact that a 63,000 tonne ship takes maybe a mile to turn and miles to stop..?

I think from the publicly reported facts she seem to have been fully responsible...anyone who thinks a 63,000 tonne ship is going to dodge around a small pleasure boat successfully is dreaming...but of course there are a million unanswered questions...if they saw her coming did they try to raise her on Ch 16..? ...was her radar on and with a proximity alarm set..? was her radio on and set to Ch 16..?
Also consider that from the bridge of a ship like that they would probably not be able to tell the difference between someone who has seen them and is steering past them 50M off...and someone who hasnt seen them and is going to steam into them....not until too late for them (the ship) to do anything about it.
I have stood off large ships in PPB by 50M plenty of times, the Pilots there dont play dodgem cars with the hundreds of small craft they expect them to stay clear.

[toecutter]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

Andy, truth be known I would never mince it with a bulk carrier and yes, I have avoided quite a few over the years. But the hard, cold fact is that if you were out in the open ocean sailing a Hobie 16 and on a collision course with the Queen Mary 2 it is the Queen Mary 2 that has to give way to you. No doubt this situation rarely if ever occurs because the prudent choice is for the small boat to get the fark out of the way well before any potential collision. What you say about changing course as soon as the possibility of a collison is detected is absolute common sense. However my point is that this is NOT a rule of the COLREGS. Here's a simple series of questions: At what point does a boat become that big that it is interpreted as restricted in ability to manouver if size (or is it tonnage???) alone dictates this? Who makes that decision? If I'm the captain of a bulk carrier and half the sailboats get out ouf my way and half stand on - what the hell action do I take when a close quarter situation occurs? If you're in your power boat drifting offshore whilst you untangle that net from your prop and you're in my path, do I run over the top of you because apparently my multimillion dollar ship is incapable of changing course? If you're actually another ship, are we screwed because neither of us are capable of getting out of each others way?

The COLREGS are international. the UK MAIB site has some interesting reports, some pertaining to this very topic:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports.cfm

And here's a snippit from the COLREGS:
(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.
The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

(i) A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) A vessel engaged in mineclearance operations;
(vi) A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.

(h) The term "vessel constrained by her draft" means a power driven vessel which because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

[boatboy50]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

Hey Guys,

I believe that she was awake, and trying to contact the ship prior to the incident. The language barrier was the issue, and in the end neither could understand what the other was doing over the radio.

I don't believe she was asleep for a second without any alarms to help her along.

Regards

Darren

[Horse]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

The more I hear the more I think the parents should be charged with child abuse. She is not deemed legally capable to drive on a suburban road and yet they are happily sending her into all sorts of danger. I have no doubt that at some stage its likely that someone will be called on to pull her out of the sh!t. I hope it all ends safetly

[TheRealAndy]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

Andy, truth be known I would never mince it with a bulk carrier and yes, I have avoided quite a few over the years. But the hard, cold fact is that if you were out in the open ocean sailing a Hobie 16 and on a collision course with the Queen Mary 2 it is the Queen Mary 2 that has to give way to you. No doubt this situation rarely if ever occurs because the prudent choice is for the small boat to get the fark out of the way well before any potential collision. What you say about changing course as soon as the possibility of a collison is detected is absolute common sense. However my point is that this is NOT a rule of the COLREGS. Here's a simple series of questions: At what point does a boat become that big that it is interpreted as restricted in ability to manouver if size (or is it tonnage???) alone dictates this? Who makes that decision? If I'm the captain of a bulk carrier and half the sailboats get out ouf my way and half stand on - what the hell action do I take when a close quarter situation occurs? If you're in your power boat drifting offshore whilst you untangle that net from your prop and you're in my path, do I run over the top of you because apparently my multimillion dollar ship is incapable of changing course? If you're actually another ship, are we screwed because neither of us are capable of getting out of each others way?

The COLREGS are international. the UK MAIB site has some interesting reports, some pertaining to this very topic:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports.cfm

And here's a snippit from the COLREGS:
(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.
The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

(i) A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) A vessel engaged in mineclearance operations;
(vi) A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.

(h) The term "vessel constrained by her draft" means a power driven vessel which because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

Just read that carefully. The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

Those last few words are the key words you would be arguing in a court. The point here is, that the less manouverable vessel will always have right of way. In the case of the 30ft sailing vessel V the 700 foot, well you can throw the tiller on the sailing boat, you cant do it on a 700 foot ship. At full steam that ship would take miles to change course.

If you read (quoting from memory) rule 18 it basically outlines the pecking order.

To answer your questions:
At what point does a boat become that big that it is interpreted as restricted in ability to manouver if size (or is it tonnage???) alone dictates this?

Common sense.

Who makes that decision?

In a legal desicion, the judge will. However his desicion will be based on common sense. To get a real understanding of the definition you best bet would be to research case law (previous descisions).

If I'm the captain of a bulk carrier and half the sailboats get out ouf my way and half stand on - what the hell action do I take when a close quarter situation occurs?

IF you are driving a 700foot ship, the laws of physics pretty much dont allow you to do to much to quickly. To stop a boat that size travelling at full steam would probably take about 5mile.

If you're in your power boat drifting offshore whilst you untangle that net from your prop and you're in my path, do I run over the top of you because apparently my multimillion dollar ship is incapable of changing course?

You wont have a choice unless you see me 5 mile away. If you do see me, you will sound your horn 5 times to indicate you dont understand my intentions or to signal danger.

In this situation, the boat that cannot be manouvered technically has the right of way, this is considered a vessel that is not under command. However, in the situation described it would become an unfortunate accident because the bulk carrier really cant do to much.

If you're actually another ship, are we screwed because neither of us are capable of getting out of each others way?

Pretty much, and it has happened before in the south china sea and the strait of malacca. In the case of 2 large ships they will have a set course to prevent collision. Similar to aircraft.

ITs worth noting that in places like Sydney Harbour there are additional rules in addition to the COLREGS. One good example is that ferries have right of way of sail boats. They carry (once again from memory) a orange diamond to indicate this.

[Lbudgie]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

Hey Guys,

I believe that she was awake, and trying to contact the ship prior to the incident. The language barrier was the issue, and in the end neither could understand what the other was doing over the radio.

I don't believe she was asleep for a second without any alarms to help her along.

Regards

Darren

i was watching the news flicking the chanels on the morning as she was coming back to port.
one of the reporters on a boat that had just spoken to her quoted her as saying that she was having trouble comunicating with the ships skipper befor the accedent. that was befor the agents or whoever is taking care of her media and stuff started telling her what to say.
now from that and her following interviews and what she and others like her mum are saying avasive coments about it now.
its nothing to do with that "there is some sort of legal investigation".
i will bet my right nacker (wife has already won the left one) that she took the aproach that "i am a sail boat with right of way and YOU will go around me" but left it too late to take action.
i bet she has lernt a lesson in life that most of us have lernt, and hope she is better off for it.

[Ando74]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

Someone organise a pub and a time and I'll happily go over the Colregs and their application to us as fisherman and the difficulty of trying to manouver around small boats who decide (Correctly) that they will stand on.

I have a Master Class 1 and have used them on a daily basis every time I'm at work.

[seatime]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

Toecutter.

Can you use the Colreg's as an excuse when she wasn't abiding by them either? (Rule 5 - Lookout)

It's no excuse on the ship's behalf either, they were both in the wrong at some stage.

Colreg's are only applicable if there is risk of collision. If I was in the same situation, with all her you beaut electronic aids, as soon as the vessel was detected (which would be well over 20 miles away using AIS) I would make slight alteration (a course alteration of a few degrees at this distance would put the CPA out to well over a mile) and totally avoid putting myself at risk of collision.

With no risk of collision at 20 miles distance, the colregs don't apply.

Broad statements like that are bound to attract debate! it's no wonder toecutter responded.
Maybe ColRegs concerning risk of collision don't apply, though others certainly do, as toecutter later highlighted.
Fact is; the most important rule when out there boating is to Avoid a Collision. Nothing in the Regs allows 2 vessels to collide.

"I have a Master Class 1 and have used them on a daily basis every time I'm at work"

The 12-4 on the bulky may have had one of these too. Plenty of MC1's have made errors of judgement... historically proven.

Media reports can't be relied upon to make judgements on this incident - we'll have to wait for the ATSB investigation, if one is conducted, and then probably nothing will be done about it!

Concerning the Aus maritime boundaries from base lines(please don't quote me)-
3 mile Coastal Waters - State, Territory & C'wealth laws
12 mile Territorial Sea - Australian sovereignty (e.g. Navigation Act in this case)
24 Mile Contiguous Zone - C'wealth customs, fiscal, Immigration or sanitary laws & regs
EEZ 200 mile (some exceptions) - exploration and exploitation of natural resources

Further reading available in the UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea)

The oil spill off Moreton Island became a state issue because it washed ashore here.

[Ando74]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

No doubt mistakes are made, like driving a car, everyone has a licence, some just use them as they please.

As for the colregs not applying when there is no risk of collision, it's 100% correct, how can you use them to avoid collision if there isn't going to be one?!

Many people on here for years have had their own idea of how to apply them based on what they have read, and with no formal training or explantion.

[trueblue]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

I don't understand why all this talk of the carrier being restricted in ability to manouvre, or to be able to change course.

The ship was NOT in a confined shipping channel, it was in the open sea on what is a shipping lane that could be called a bloody highway that is miles wide. It was not restricted in ability to manouvre.

a big ship takes a mile or so to change course? bullsh!t. people who think that have not watched big ships in action, especially where there are a lot of big ships all in a small area.

I have watched huge numbers of big ships (30 plus all at the same time) in the Singapore straits etc, and they can turn fairly easily to achieve a 10 to 15 degree heading change.

Have you ever watched a big ship in the shipping channel taking a turn at speed with precision. Look at the chart for the shipping channel in Moreton bay, and look at the dog leg turns in it.

Also, avoiding a collision out in the open ocean only requires a few degrees of course change if maintaining an appropriate watch - and this includes both parties - all skippers have the obligation to avoid collisions.

Yes, the big ship should have avoided the sail boat, they should have sounded that great big horn they have, they should have changed course etc, etc, etc

but the sail boat should have been maintaining a watch in that busy shipping lane, and said "bugger me, thats bloody big, I'll move away from it"

if she was asleep, she should have headed in much closer, or gone out much wider to be out of the general shipping area, and had radar alarms set to wake her up if a vesel became near to her.

she is not ready to be sailing around the world.

Mick

[Getout]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

The whole episode is a debacle. This kid is lucky to still be alive after just one night into a 9mth trip!
1. The yacht was travelling south east , the ship was travelling north. The ship was crossing from the right. Right of way?
2. The ship was under power, the yacht was under sail. Right of way? Keep in mind that this occurred in darkness (difficult to tell that a distant vessel is a yacht under sail.
Right of way is irrelevant for two vessels in this situation. It is about avoiding collision, not deciding who is in the right.

What did happen with the radar alarms and the AIS?
What about the changing story about miscommunication, asleep down below etc, etc. I even heard on a local radio interview that when she knew collision was unavoidable, she went down below because it was the safest place to be in a collision!!!!!!WTF??????


This collision was avoidable up until the last few seconds. The yacht has a motor. (she used it to come back to port!) A short burst under motor would have taken less time than it would have taken to desert the helm and hide down below AND would have given her enough clearance to change this incident from a near disaster to a close call.

I hate to say it but Jessica Watson is going to need a lot of luck if she expects to complete this journey.

[toecutter]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

Sailing boats can be identified at night from the front because they don't show a white light, and I would guess that in this instance, the boat would have been displaying a 'tricolour" on the mast, which is a dead giveaway

[Getout]

Re: Any lawyers out there???

Sailing boats can be identified at night from the front because they don't show a white light, and I would guess that in this instance, the boat would have been displaying a 'tricolour" on the mast, which is a dead giveaway

from five miles away?