BRP Evinrude calls for industry unity for a cleaner environment

[PinHead]

If you saw me pouring a pack of used engine oil into the water - what would you say or do?

I'm interested to hear how you justify the extra tonnes of pollution that your decision to buy a 2 stroke would put into the water? I mean at the same time say we have a right to go fishing because we are responsible?

I can understand people saying “I didn’t know the 2 stroke has so much more emissions" I can understand people who say” I could only afford the 2 stroke"

I can’t understand why, if 2/4 strokes were the same price why buy a 2? Slightly faster acceleration vs. 4.6 tonnes of pollution? Hardly responsible angling and the type of attitude that greenies use to justify closing down fishing.

I get the feeling that you just like to argue for the heck of it, and hang the facts ... so I'll call it quits here.

Gary

quite ironic Gary that this thread was started:

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/sho...d.php?t=153553

and what are the recommendations...purchase price + performance = 2 stroke.

But i am just argumentative and must be the only one to have my opinion but it appears not.

I have more questions...
1. those emission figures..are they above water or below water emissions.
2. If a combination then what % is what.
3. For underwater emissions, what chemical reactions take place between the water and the emissions and what are the resulting chemicals or compunds.
4. In what % solution will these chemicals be held in suspension in the water.
5. What rates of dilution, if any, are there for any resualtant chemicals.

More arguments i guess but if these are emmissions you talk about then what happens to them in the phase after reacting with the sea water.

It is all good to recite emmissions and obviously they cannot be disputed but the ongoing questions obviously are where do they end up and in what form ?

You stated ratings on air conditioners previously..I can tell you that controls over the domestic air cond industry are not worth a star nor anything else..might as well be using R12 still.

Without proper regualtion I cannot see any controls over the OB industry being any different.

[TimiBoy]

A query because I don't know - what is the life of CO in the atmosphere? I know BRP make a big deal of the low CO emission bit, but my understanding is that CO oxidises fairly quickly into CO2. How quickly? In other words, how relevant is it really?

Cheers,

Tim

[FNQCairns]

A query because I don't know - what is the life of CO in the atmosphere? I know BRP make a big deal of the low CO emission bit, but my understanding is that CO oxidises fairly quickly into CO2. How quickly? In other words, how relevant is it really?

Cheers,

Tim

Tim, CO is soluble and reactive although I do not think it converts to CO2 at any stage, it simply no longer exists as CO in quick time, not a greenhouse gas or a factor in GW but certainly it is a poison.

I simply cannot remember it ever being an issue environmentally (natural environment) only in close range high concentration (for that molecule) it becomes an environmental human health consideration.

Chemistry was a battle for me at Uni so happy to stand corrected.

cheers fnq

[deepfried]

If we follow what is happening in other countries it wont be too many years and the old 2 strokes will be banned anyway. Mowers, outboards etc. Dont know if it is right or wrong but it is going to happen.

[PinHead]

If we follow what is happening in other countries it wont be too many years and the old 2 strokes will be banned anyway. Mowers, outboards etc. Dont know if it is right or wrong but it is going to happen.

it is unfortunate that we follow along blindly in a lot of instances

[Charlie]

You're a hundred percent right there PinHead, reducing the snog cars produce on hot DRY days is a good thing however all those particulates and nitrox compound won't last five minutes near water,as for the oil slick I'll beleive it when I see it.
FWIW I run a Suzuki 4 stroke BTW.

quite ironic Gary that this thread was started:

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/sho...d.php?t=153553

and what are the recommendations...purchase price + performance = 2 stroke.

But i am just argumentative and must be the only one to have my opinion but it appears not.

I have more questions...
1. those emission figures..are they above water or below water emissions.
2. If a combination then what % is what.
3. For underwater emissions, what chemical reactions take place between the water and the emissions and what are the resulting chemicals or compunds.
4. In what % solution will these chemicals be held in suspension in the water.
5. What rates of dilution, if any, are there for any resualtant chemicals.

More arguments i guess but if these are emmissions you talk about then what happens to them in the phase after reacting with the sea water.

It is all good to recite emmissions and obviously they cannot be disputed but the ongoing questions obviously are where do they end up and in what form ?

You stated ratings on air conditioners previously..I can tell you that controls over the domestic air cond industry are not worth a star nor anything else..might as well be using R12 still.

Without proper regualtion I cannot see any controls over the OB industry being any different.

[Gary Fooks]

CO - I gather CO is less or not water soluble. For boaties I was more concerned about Carbon Monoxide as a safety issue.

I see the occasional government brochure about engine fumes getting into cabins … .

I recall reading that “teak surfing” = holding onto a teak deck at he back of a boat , after some kids passed out and drowned.

The US regulations at first covered only HC+ NOX - later adding a separate CO limit. EU started with all 3 + noise limits.

The emission numbers are out of the exhaust pipe – how much end up in the water and how much in the air hasn’t been defined.

I mean studies have shown some end up in both. I can imagine that what goes where depends on the chemical itself, its solubility, water salinity, depth, temperature speed … many variables.


This is all amusing and the research and debate can rage on. But for me here is the bottom line:

Do we throw rubbish out the car window and over the side of the boat? How about oil / fuel and acid? Then, knowing what I now know about 2 strokes, and how much junk they put into the water, how can I justify buying one next time?

Gary

[Gary Fooks]

From Boating Safety
Carbon Monoxide
Carbon monoxide (CO) can harm and even kill you inside or outside your boat!
Did you also know:

• CO symptoms are similar to seasickness or alcohol intoxication?
• CO can affect you whether you're underway, moored, or anchored?
• You cannot see, smell, or taste CO?
• CO can make you sick in seconds. In high enough concentrations, even a few breaths can be fatal?

Most important of all, did you know carbon monoxide poisonings are preventable? Every boater should be aware of the risks associated with carbon monoxide - what it is; where it may accumulate; and the symptoms of CO poisoning. To protect yourself, your passengers, and those around you, learn all you can about CO.
Dangers of Carbon Monoxide
The must-know facts about carbon monoxide. If you don't recognize the symptoms of CO poisoning, you may not receive the medical attention you need.
Where CO May Accumulate
You're not just at risk inside a boat. Knowing all the possible places where CO may accumulate could save your life.
How to Protect Others & Yourself
CO poisoning is preventable. Here are specific steps you can take to help prevent carbon monoxide from harming you, your passengers, or fellow boaters.
Helpful Checklists and Maintenance Tips
A checklist for every trip, plus a monthly and annual checklist. They're easy for you to print and use.
Reports/ News Articles /Testimonials
The latest reports and studies on carbon monoxide. Also, hear from those who lost loved ones to CO poisoning and those who survived close calls with CO.
Downloadable Educational Tools
Brochures, photos, posters, and other tools to help increase awareness about carbon monoxide and recreational boating

[TimiBoy]

It's hard to argue the numbers and say 2 stroke = good from an emissions standpoint. Affordability has to be addressed however to get folks to "cross the line".

I know all the oil from my services is recycled.

I take issue with CO being argued as an issue for pollution. I know it's dangerous, for all the above reasons. But an environmental hazard? Not on your nelly. They (BRP) should be specifying that, but they will use anything to carry on the low carbon emissions bandwagon. Hmph. Marketeers. Shoot them all.

If BRP are industry leaders in calling for low carbon emissions, then I trust them even less, because they know (as do most with half a brain, sorry if I offend - well, not really) that it's a bunk.

Tim

[PADDLES]

timi, there will be no line to cross. if you want to buy a new motor you will only be able to buy one that is compliant with the new regulations. affordability will not be an issue either, the range of new outboards will be all new technology types and will be a certain price (the price will come down somewhat with volume of sales/manufacture) there will not be a choice to make on affordability. basically you will only be able to buy one that complies, unless you wish to buy something second hand of course.

[Gary Fooks]

Boat motor fumes fatal for 8-year-old
Carbon monoxide cited in death; girl fainted, fell in water
By Holly Abrams

Jesslynn Gustin
An 8-year-old Garrett girl pulled from a Huntington County lake Monday died after breathing in exhaust from the boat she was a passenger on, the Allen County Coroner’s Office said.
Jesslynn “Jessy” Gustin had been sitting on a swim platform on a boat at J. Edward Roush Lake in Huntington County. She apparently passed out and fell into the water, according to Indiana conservation officers.
Officers were called to the lake in response to a possible drowning about 4:30 p.m. Monday and found Jesslynn. She was flown to Fort Wayne’s Parkview Hospital, where she died shortly thereafter.
She died as a result of a lack of oxygen to her brain caused by carbon monoxide poisoning, an autopsy Tuesday revealed. The coroner’s office ruled her death accidental.
“We’re going to miss her,” said her grandfather, Robert Gustin of Woodburn. He said his granddaughter enjoyed the lake, boating and tubing. She attended J.E. Ober Elementary School in Garrett.
Jesslynn Gustin is survived by her parents, Fredrick John Gustin of Garrett and Jessica Middleton of Portland. She is also survived by four siblings.
The funeral service will be at 3 p.m. Thursday at E. Harper & Son Funeral Home, 740 Indiana 930 E., New Haven, with visitation from 1 to 3 p.m. Thursday.

[PinHead]

"Jesslynn was riding on the swim platform of her family's inboard-engine ski boat "

CO is dangerous..we all know that...so what was the point of that Gary..you onto the inboards now????

[Gary Fooks]

The purpose was to make more “real” the dangers of marine engines and CO. My earlier point was that I (personally) see CO as more of safety matter than a pollution issue.

As explained in my earlier post (4 Aug above ) the current proposed regulations already include SI (petrol) stern drives and inboards. As well as PWC’s, lawn mowers, brush cutters, petrol garden blowers etc etc .

Diesel standards, including CI (diesel) inboards have been started by government, and lag SI (petrol) regulations by about two or three years.


So, if anyone wants my guess its petrol standards in 2012 and diesel 2015. But my crystal ball is very cloudy ...

[finga]

"Jesslynn was riding on the swim platform of her family's inboard-engine ski boat "

CO is dangerous..we all know that...so what was the point of that Gary..you onto the inboards now????

Usually 4 strokes or diesel and all.
As mentioned previously about 'teak surfing' I think it was called would, more then likely, be an inboard motor which are usually diesel or 4 stroke as you don't see too many swim platforms or what-ever you'd like to call them with outboard motors.
No point in mentioning that point if trying to justify the banning or not of 2 strokes.
You should be trying to ban the dopes who allow their kids to 'teak surf'.

In Australia the amount of pollution 2 stroke outboard motors contribute to the overall pollution problems in our waterways would be insignificant to say...the level of oils and crap (literally crap. Dog poo is a large problem in waterways) washing off our roads etc into the waterways.
Maybe the better thing to improve our waterways is to have yearly rego checks like other states to get rid of all the oil leaking cars about in QLD instead of mandating the use of 4 stroke outboards.
Oops..better shut up now as mine would be off the road in the first round I suppose

We should be looking at the full picture...not a slice of some-ones fantasy or marketing ploy.

[Gary Fooks]

Finga writes:

In Australia the amount of pollution 2 stroke outboard motors contribute to the overall pollution problems in our waterways would be insignificant to say...the level of oils and crap (literally crap. Dog poo is a large problem in waterways) washing off our roads etc into the waterways.

I'd be interested to read your research– or is this just a personal guess?

I think Finga is probably correct – that the biggest water problem is probably run off from cities and drains (and farm run off of chemicals ) ( Based on Healthy Waterways research)

But I suspect that thsi chat board has too many made up facts - and not enough hard data.

Unlike others, I don’t say the run off of so bad that I am justified in dumping what I like.

And I still disagree with the overall sentiment. I am saying “I don’t throw rubbish out the car window or over the side of the boat". For the same reasons I wont buy a 2 stroke and put 10 times the emissions into the water and air”

What you are saying is the opposite to some degree. What you are saying is “They are putting more stuff in the water than me, so what the heck if I do?

I can’t condone or understand such an attitude. Just because there is rubbish on the side of the road I don’t make it worse by adding my own rubbish. Do you?


I also understand there are people here who already have two strokes, and have had for years – and find the hard facts confronting and will grab at anything to justify what they bought years ago. Its called equity theory ... we all do it, but that’s not my field.

I suggest that we all take a breath, say “I didn’t know” and then buy what your conscience allows you to buy next time. There is no “guilt” about what you bought before you knew as far as I am concerned.

Regulations are coming anyway, because 55% of Australians (60% of Qlders) wont “do the right thing”.


“FACTS”

I don’t have the facts on two strokes vs. dog poo, and I suspect neither does Finga. In fact as they are different chemicals the comparison is meaningless.

So let’s do some analysis and see what the numbers MAY look like.

Were you unhappy about the Moreton Bay Oil spill? Did you think P&O should pay the bill for the clean up? That oil spill was 270 tonnes – as reported in the Courier Mail.

HYPOTHETICAL Estimate

This is just a “back of envelope“ calculation. Re do it with your own numbers if you disagree with my estimates. Vis:

In Qld there are over 200,000 boats registered. (commercial and recreational, source Qld Transport)
Based on 60% buying 2 strokes in 2005 guess that 60% are two strokes (Source DEWHA)
Take a guess as the average size as 30hp

Avg 30hp 2 stroke = 200.9 (HC+ NOx g/kW/hr)
Avg 30hp 4 stroke = 14.5 (HC+ NOx g/kW/hr) (Source F&B)

Guess average 50 hours per annum

So that’s 60% of 200,000 boats = 120,000 boats have two strokes

Their extra annual emissions from each two stroke is (200.9 -14.5) x (30hp x .749) kW x 50 hrs = 209.4kg each

So for 120,000 boats that’s 25,130,448 kg of additional stuff in the water due to 2 strokes. Mostly Hydrocarbons - oil and fuel

Compare that to the Moreton Bay oil spill 270,000 kg.

In other words - in this very rough estimate, two strokes in Qld alone account for the same emissions as 93 oil spills.

If you don’t agree with my estimate, then do your own numbers - but just don’t have a tantrum and argue off topic. I won’t.