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E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth
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Thread: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

  1. #1
    Ausfish Silver Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007

    Thumbs up E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    I have been in a battle with my boat for 3 years to track down a fuel problem that up to a week ago was driving me crazy.I have a 6.5m allycraft centre consule driven by 2 merc 4 stroke 50's, and the problem was while driving offshore i would loose all power back to walking speed at full throttles, when i backed off it would stall and only start under full idle.

    The first thing was to get carbies cleaned 3 times by 3 different dealers which helped for a short time but then same old same old.
    Next i cleaned both my tanks out 5 times both tanks {150 litres each} now this was not fun through the sensor holes buit only got teaspoon of shit out of each tank every time.
    I contacted Mercury all over the place asking for advise but noone could give me any reason for the problem.

    Now after 3 years of this problem i was going to sell them but i couldnt let some other fisherman buy them and i hate getting beaten.

    just happened into Caloundra Marine and was talking to owner about other things and mentioned my problem when he turned and gave me a sheet on E10 unleaded. now i dont use E10 but do use normal unleaded to which he told me servos are putting E10 into normal unleaded.
    This is the important bit:
    E10 FUEL ONLY LASTS 14 DAYS IN YOUR FUEL TANK BEFORE IT SEPERATES INTO 3 DIFFERENT PARTS.
    1} UNLEADED FUEL ON THE TOP
    2}WATER IN THE MIDDLE
    3}PURE 100% ETHENOL ONTHE BOTTOM.

    And because ethenol in thinner the fuel it attracts water which sticks to it and travels into your motors passing through all filters and clogging your jets. so as he told me i was pumping [pure ethenol into my motors and then water mix and this was the cause of my problems. so i done some googling and found some really scary info. just google e10 in boats problems.

    so now i use premium unleaded only and to this day no problems fingers crossed so dont fall into the trap of putting normal or e10 unleaded in your boat tanks cause you will pay the price. i wil try and scan the sheet he give me so i can attach it to ths tread but anyone can pm me and i can fax it to you.

    good fishing guys

  2. #2

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    i dont believe E10 is put into all unleaded fuel... at least not without saying it has it... Or unless you get fuel from BP

    Where were you getting your regular unleaded?

    I happen to use Shell V-Power in my Yammy 2-stroke and no problems... but have used regular unleaded (not E10) before and no hassles either (from Shell).

  3. #3
    Ausfish Platinum Member mowerman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    Have a look at this thread mate.


    http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/sho...d.php?t=149506


    Rod
    My dictionary defines green as ‘unripe, immature, undeveloped'. Perfect description.

    Most political parties are seen as interested in what the voters think, the Greens are seen as thinking the community should be interested in what they think.

  4. #4

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    Im having a bit of drama with my 115 E-tec at the moment. Some similar symtoms to yours. Its going for a service this week so ill have a chat with the mechanic. Cheers for the heads up.

    Whytey
    If you wish to learn more about reading and getting the most from your Lowrance units or learning more about fishing with artificial baits I will come out in the comfort of your own boat for one on one coaching. Please call for more information.

  5. #5

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    I've only had my (first) boat since the Easter weekend, but had previously read of ethanol problems. Indeed, my owners manual also warns against ethanol blends.
    'Some' servos only sell E10 blends. I avoid those, and if I'm at an unfamiliar servo, I go in and ask which ones are E10 blends. I always (I sound like I'm experienced!) use premium fuel, but like I said, some servos even have E10 in their premium.

  6. #6
    Ausfish Platinum Member darylive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    Don't use that s#it. My Honda manual specifically states the warranty is void if you use Ethanol.


    Most of my Money is spent on Booze and Fishin.
    The Rest is just Wasted!
    To The Shed.............

  7. #7

    Exclamation Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Why-ting View Post
    Im having a bit of drama with my 115 E-tec at the moment. Some similar symtoms to yours. Its going for a service this week so ill have a chat with the mechanic. Cheers for the heads up.

    Whytey
    i had the same problem....buying from BP is a no no i have found


    change supply and problem gone after trip to dealer

  8. #8

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    Yep, won't touch anything that even comes within a wiff of containing ethanol. Way too many documented problems arising from the use and storage of ethanol based blends. Has been known to turn some rubber and plastic fuel components to jelly, which then breaks down and hey presto, a self destructing fuel system.

    I rang the head of Ford servicing about my old BA falcon and questioned the use of e10 - they said that while they don't have any "documented" issues resulting from its use, I quote "but we certainly don't recommend its use".

    Make up your own mind, but I only run premium in my motorcycle, premium in the new Territory, and the new boat will only have NON ethanol based fuels to drink through the Honda.

    Environmentally friendly, but not engine friendly

    WalFish

  9. #9

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    premium ULP (PULP) is NOT recommended for outboards. Do a search of this forum for more info. I have always used ULP and never had a problem. Maye it was just your local that was being sly?
    Jeremy

  10. #10

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    So this rermains a significant unresolved problem given many people believe that E is sometimes being added to standard ULP without declaring it, and Premium PULP is NOT recommended for outboards as Jeremy correctly points out. This has all the look of a problem where a political decision to always add E to ULP making E10 is likely leaving boaters in the lurch somewhat..?

  11. #11

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    premium ULP (PULP) is NOT recommended for outboards. Do a search of this forum for more info. I have always used ULP and never had a problem. Maye it was just your local that was being sly?
    Jeremy
    Yeah im with jeremy on this one too! Now I own a 2 banger and Ive always been on the understanding that premium gas doe's not blend with oils as well and also burns hotter and can create problem's such as blowing holes in pistons etc! is this true...Who knows because for the first 2 months of owning my boat I ran ,the then called, optimax ( now V-power) and never had an issue, I only stopped upon advice gained from this site, Now I only use regular unleaded (without ethanol of course) and have only had one drama in the past year where it turns out the fuel I had may have been a bit "icky" but tipped it out and put new plugs + filter and fresh fuel and im off again!
    I myself am at a loss as to what fuel is best but I do know that 4 stroke's go better with high octane fuel. Also it is worth pointing out that I have a small tank that after refilling gets shaken up and all to mix in the oil etc, by doing this It keeps the fuel well mixed as I use the boat every weekend!
    Just my thought's

    bretty

  12. #12

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    I've got a '94 40hp Johnson, with a 40lt tank. I've been using the optimax and pre-mixing on advice from the service centre in Gladstone. He advised that most of the oil will be mixed due to the action of the trailer on the road before I get to the ramp.

    Seeing as I don't do a lot of trips and the fuel can be left standing for a couple of weeks before the next run, I prefer the higher octane. Never had any problems with pinging, or the likes, and the last service the service agent was happy with the state of the carbs etc.

    So to each their own.

    As to the E10, I have notice some servos have an E10 pump, but are not labeling all their pumps. I got caught out with the car when I started filling from what I thought was the normal pump only to see a little disclaimer on the end of the sticker on the glass, written in spmall print was caution this pump has been treated with ethanol.

    Harry
    I love the sound of reels screaming in the morning

  13. #13

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    This is from Mercury Marine in the US regarding Ethanol in Gasoline.


    Mercury Marine remains very active in developing a thorough understanding of important issues and environments in which our products must operate. Mercury’s engineers work constantly to expand our understanding of fuel technologies and their interactions with all Mercury products to ensure they perform properly and reliably. Mercury personnel work in concert with industry groups, such as the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA), to offer input into the overall processes by which many decisions are made regarding fuel regulations and energy policies so future problems are minimized and future developments are beneficial to those who utilize our products.
    Included below is a list of questions and answers that address typical concerns of consumers.
    Please feel free to contact any Mercury Marine field representative with questions, or contact us at public.relations@mercmarine.com. Mercury will do its best to help find answers, whether you’re seeking general information or wishing to discuss legal proposals, or if you’re seeking information regarding ethanol-tolerant materials.
    1. What are ethanol and ethanol-blended fuels?
    Ethanol for fuel is highly refined beverage (grain) alcohol, approximately 200 proof, that can be produced from natural products such as corn, sugar cane and wheat. New technology will allow ethanol to be made from “cellulosic” feedstocks including corn stalks, grain straw, paper, pulp, wood chips, municipal waste, switchgrass and other sources. Ethanol used for fuel has been “denatured,” or rendered unsafe to drink by the addition of a hydrocarbon (usually gasoline). The ethanol-blended fuel E-10 refers to fuel that contains 10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline. Similarly, E-85 refers to fuel that contains 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. E-85 is intended only for engines specially designed to accept high-ethanol content fuel blends, such as the Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFV) made by some car companies.
    2. How is ethanol made?
    In the U.S., ethanol is typically produced by removing the starch or sugar portion of corn and fermenting it. The fermented starch is then distilled into alcohol. Excess water is removed, resulting in very pure – 200 proof – ethyl alcohol (ethanol).
    In some parts of the world, ethanol is made from a variety of raw materials. For example, sugar cane is used to produce ethanol in Brazil, while sugar beets and wheat straw are commonly used in Europe.
    3. What are the characteristics of ethanol?
    Ethanol is an oxygenated hydrocarbon compound that has a high octane rating and therefore is useful in increasing the octane level of unleaded gasoline. The EPA, the agency responsible for setting some of the requirements for all gasoline used in the U.S., has allowed the use of ethanol in gasoline at levels up to 10 percent as an octane enhancer and to provide beneficial clean-burning combustion characteristics that help improve some emissions.
    Ethanol is hygroscopic (it has an attraction for water) and will more readily mix with water than with gasoline. It has different solvency behaviors than does gasoline, which allows it to loosen rust and debris that might lay undisturbed in fuel systems. And it can more readily remove plasticizers and resins from certain plastic materials that might not be affected by gasoline alone. Loose debris will plug filters and can interfere with engine operation. Additionally, ethanol is corrosive to some metals, especially in combination with water. Although gasoline does not conduct electricity well, ethanol has an appreciable capability to conduct electricity and therefore can promote galvanic corrosion.
    4. What is MTBE and why is it being replaced?
    MTBE is the chemical shorthand description for methyl tertiary-butyl ether. MTBE is another oxygenated hydrocarbon compound that has a high octane rating. It was initially a preferred compound widely used for octane enhancement as a replacement for leaded compounds in gasoline. When the EPA developed regulations requiring oxygenated gasoline to help reduce smog in several areas of the country, MTBE was the most commonly used compound to supply the additional oxygen, while ethanol was chosen for this purpose in the Midwest region of the country. Recently, most states have banned the use of MTBE because of its tendency to work its way into ground water systems, usually from leaks and spills, as an undesirable contaminant. Ethanol is being used as a replacement.
    5. Does ethanol affect horsepower or fuel-efficiency?
    Ethanol has a heating value of 76,000 BTU per gallon, which is approximately 30 percent less than gasoline’s heating value (which is approximately 109,000 to 119,000 BTU/gal). The result is E-10 gasoline which should yield slightly lower mileage – a decrease of approximately 3 percent. Fuels containing higher levels of ethanol will have a corresponding reduction in mileage. For example, E85 fuels produce mileage approximately 30 percent less than gasoline.
    The octane rating of pure ethanol (200 proof) is about 100 and is therefore useful in elevating the octane value of gasoline. In E-10 blends the presence of ethanol provides about 2.5 to 3 percent of the overall octane rating. The effect on engine horsepower is determined by the octane result of the blended fuel. Care should be taken to select fuels having the octane rating recommended for the engine as indicated in the owner’s manual for proper operation.
    Compatibility with Mercury Engines
    6. Are Mercury engines compatible with ethanol fuels?
    The fuel-system components of Mercury engines will withstand up to 10 percent alcohol content in gasoline – the maximum level currently allowed by the EPA in the U.S. There are some efforts to establish E-20 (20 percent ethanol mixed with 80 gasoline) for use in some areas, but that will require agreement from EPA to grant a waiver. Part of the EPA waiver process will require verification from studies that demonstrate that higher levels of ethanol do not create problems with fuel-system materials or operation of hardware. E-20 has not been extensively studied by Mercury and is not acceptable for use in Mercury products. E-85 fuels must not be used in any Mercury engines and could seriously damage current Mercury products. It is not legal in the U.S. to market any ethanol fuel as gasoline if it contains more than 10 percent ethanol.
    7. Will the use of fuels containing ethanol void my engine warranty?
    Fuels containing up to 10 percent ethanol are considered acceptable for use in Mercury engines. Fuels containing higher levels of ethanol are not considered acceptable for use, and the use of fuels containing ethanol higher than 10 percent can void the warranty.

    8. What about the fuel-system components on the boat?
    It is important to follow boat manufacturers’ recommendations when selecting appropriate fuels. Use of an inappropriate fuel can result in damage to the engine and boat components that may require repair or replacement. Fuels with ethanol can attack some fuel-system components, such as tanks and lines, if they are not made from acceptable ethanol-compatible materials. This can lead to operational problems or safety issues such as clogged filters, leaks or engine damage.
    9. Can ethanol-blended fuels affect the performance of two-stroke engines?
    Two-stroke outboards should experience little or no decrease in performance due to gasoline fuels containing up to 10-percent ethanol when operated according to Mercury’s standard recommendations. When gasoline with ethanol is used for the first time after a fuel changeover from MTBE, the tank must be completely dry prior to introduction of gasoline with ethanol. Otherwise, phase separation could occur that could cause filter plugging or damage to the engine. If an engine is a 1990 or older model frequent inspections of all fuel-system components are advised to identify any signs of leakage, softening, hardening, swelling or corrosion. If any sign of leakage or deterioration is observed, replacement of the affected components is required before further operation.
    10. How does ethanol affect my fiberglass fuel tank?
    Fiberglass tanks manufactured prior to 1991 may not be compatible with gasoline containing ethanol. It has been reported that, in the presence of ethanol, some resins may be drawn out of fiberglass and carried into the engine where severe damage could occur. If an older fiberglass tank is used, check with the manufacturer to determine if gasoline with ethanol can be safely used.
    11. Are older fuel lines prone to failure? What about gaskets?
    During the 1980s, many rubber components for use in fuel systems were developed to withstand exposure to fuels containing ethanol. If rubber components in a fuel system are suspected to be of this vintage or older it may be advisable to replace them with newer ethanol-safe components before using fuels containing ethanol. Check with the manufacturer for advice or frequently inspect these fuel-system components for signs of swelling or deterioration and replace if problems are noted.

    Recommended Practices
    12. Ethanol is replacing MTBE in my region? What should I do?
    Before gasoline with ethanol is introduced to your fuel tank, ask your boat manufacturer if any special precautions should be considered with the use of fuel containing ethanol. Check for the presence of water in the fuel tank. If any is found, remove all water and dry the tank completely. As a precaution, it is advisable to carry a few extra filters in case filter plugging becomes a problem during boating.
    13. Should I add an additional fine-micron filter to the system to prevent debris from entering the engine?
    The addition of another filter to the system will create another possible flow restriction that can starve the engine of fuel. Mercury already provides the appropriate level of filtration to protect the engine from debris.
    14. How can a marina prepare for the change from MTBE to ethanol as the fuel oxygenate?
    Check with the manufacturer to make certain the tank and lines won’t experience problems with ethanol. Inspect the tank for water and, if present, pump out all water and thoroughly clean the tank. Install ethanol-compatible filters. The tank should be less than 20 percent full before adding the first load of fuel with ethanol.
    15. What is phase separation, and how do I deal with it?
    If significant amounts of water are present in a fuel tank with gasoline that contains ethanol, the water will be drawn into the fuel until the saturation point is reached for the three-component mixture of water + gasoline + ethanol. Beyond this level of water, phase separation could cause most of the ethanol and water to separate from the bulk fuel and drop to the bottom of the tank, leaving gasoline with a significantly reduced level of ethanol in the upper phase (see Figure 1 below). If the lower phase of water and ethanol is large enough to reach the fuel inlet, it could be pumped directly to the engine and cause significant problems. Even if the ethanol water phase at the bottom of the tank is not drawn into the fuel inlet, the reduced ethanol level of the fuel reduces the octane rating by as much as 3 octane numbers, which could result in engine problems.
    The level at which phase separation can occur is determined by a number of variables, including the amount of ethanol, the composition of the fuel, the temperature of the environment and the presence of contaminants. It is very important (A) that the system is inspected for significant quantities of water in the tank before using gasoline with ethanol and (B) to limit exposure of the fuel tank to excess water. If phase separation has occurred, it is necessary to completely remove all free water from the system and replace the fuel before continuing operation. Otherwise, engine problems could occur.

    Figure 1: Sample of fuel from fuel tank in which phase separation
    has occurred. The upper phase is gasoline with a reduced level
    of ethanol. The lower level is a mixture of ethanol and water.
    16. Is an additive available that can prevent phase separation?
    There is no practical additive that can prevent phase separation from occurring. The only practical solution is to keep water from accumulating in the tank in the first place.
    17. Are there any additives that can allow the phase-separated mixture to remix when added to the fuel tank?
    No, the only way to avoid further problems is to remove the water, dispose of the depleted fuel, clean the tank and start with a fresh, dry load of fuel.

    18. Is there a simple solution to water condensation in the tank as a result of ethanol?
    It is best to maintain a full tank of fuel when the engine is not in use. This will reduce the void space above the fuel and will reduce the flow of air in and out of the tank with changes in temperature. This will reduce condensation on the internal walls of the tank and will limit exposure of the ethanol in the fuel to humidity and condensation.
    19. What should be done when storing boats with ethanol-blended fuels for extended periods? When preparing to store a boat for extended periods of two months or more, it is best to completely remove all fuel from the tank. If it is difficult or not possible to remove the fuel, maintaining a full tank of fuel with a fuel stabilizer added to provide fuel stability and corrosion protection is recommended. A partially full tank is not recommended because the void space above the fuel allows air movement that can bring in water through condensation as the temperature cycles up and down. This condensation potentially becomes a problem. Mercury Marine Fuel System Treatment & Stabilizer can help maintain fuel systems in storage. It contains oxidation inhibitors to reduce oxidation and gum formation, metal chelating agents to protect metal components from corrosion, water absorbing agents to reduce the presence of free water, and dispersants to help suspend and disperse debris. It is best used by adding to the tank at the recommended dosage, running the engine for 10 minutes to allow the system to be cleaned, shutting off the fuel valve to interrupt the fuel supply and allow the engine to run until it stops, topping off the tank until it’s full, and capping any openings to reduce the amount of exchange with the air that might bring in condensation.
    - end -

  14. #14
    Ausfish Bronze Member
    Join Date
    May 2008

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    Most ULP have ethanol in them, if there is less than 10% like 9.5% there is no requirment to lable it and can be sold as standard ULP Even some PULP have ethanol in then but less than 10% There is no tax on ethanol so fuel com and servos make more per lt. Buyer beware

  15. #15

    Re: E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth

    We need a national database of servos that sell non-ethanol based fuel. We can call them "Boat Friendly" servos.

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