hi greg thanks for your post i hope something good is learnt from this??
hi greg thanks for your post i hope something good is learnt from this??
Originally Posted by FNQCairns
I too have spent MANY a day enjoying those areas from my years down there, what would you rather me say?
The truth, that this will have a long term detrimental impact on the area
Quick clean it up, would be done by now...but by what magic?
What are you on about?
What will it achieve to clean up an effectively inert substance laying over dead substrate and lots of healthy substrate higher up on the beach??
Never thought of the Cape rocks, inter tdal beach surf zone and surrounds as dead sub strata
I do wonder who would have raised an eyebrow at this stage if the oil was clear?
Clear, black, green, does the colour lessen the impact?
The time to deal with it was before the oil reached the shore if to make any measurable difference in outcome.
Correct
I have read the EPA has bent to election campaign needs and growing public hysteria and is now playing the game they play so well.
Im not interested in politics, or your political persuasion, however subtle you pronounce it. If you have a beef with Labour, take it up at the polling booth, dont use damage to my local spot as your soap box please
Seriously if a person did give a non biased crap about the environment they would consider everything I have said as the glass is half full, seriously again - it says lot's about the true state of reasoning behind what drives many peoples opinion.
Like I said, lets move it to your local, I will tell you how good it will all be, and you can respond as I have. I will then await your glass half full opinion with anticipation
cheers fnq
As per red text above, I was going to type in clear, but that would lessen the perceived impact.
BR I am not as flash as you with the quotes so I will old school it but I would have done this in say...blue.
Still what is your definition of long term?? Nature has it's own definition, ever heard of evolution. Above in posts you may not have bothered to read is a good estimation of the time scale involved, new visitors to the area will likely not notice any appreciable degradation at 6months even after looking for it but please discount here the relative before/after size of organisms eg pipis.
What's dead is already dead...what magic by way of clean up procedure of inert substance will help this.
Cape rocks...they are dead now...you really should read my past posts first.
Clear would be good pink might even be pretty enough to calm some types....
Correct and a obviously no brainer...thanks!
Yeah history IS the denominator over the EPA under Labor. Past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour.
No I wouldn't...how hard is that to understand (not that I need you too) some go red faced, some deal with the facts of the situation as they stand until new facts present.....any new facts you can elaborate on within the issue.
cheers fnq
The cargo ship lost 31 of its 50 shipping containers at about 3.15am (AEST) on Wednesday, when it was seven nautical miles east of Cape Moreton.
The MSQ spokesman said there were currently no disruptions to shipping in the area and it was probable the 620 tonnes of ammonium nitrate would never be recovered.
'It happened outside of Moreton Bay, on the eastern cape, in water with about 200 metres depth,' he said.
'If they sank it's likely they'll stay there.'
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) said the oil spill could potentially kill any wildlife it came into contact with.
But the ammonium nitrate should dilute enough so as not to cause any major problems other than algal blooms, EPA incident response adviser Mike Short said.
On the subject of would the containers sink or float and remembering that the ave gross of the containers lost overboard was 20,000kg. NZ Shipping web site
Our information is that most containers do in fact sink.
By multiplying the container length by its breadth and depth, and dividing by 80, the deadweight of the box would be established. Thus a 20’ box would have to exceed 16 tons before it sank. The maximum allowed gross weight of a 20’ box is 24,000 kg.
In metric terms, a 20’ box has a volume of just over 38 cubic metres. The density of seawater is 1.025 which increases the volumes (or displacement values) to just over 39 cubic metres. The forces required to push the box under the water, or to sink it, must therefore exceed the volume of water to be displaced.
Also containers are rarely watertight, most have small openings and distortions.
Added to this all 20' and 40' containers manufactured in the last few years are built with a 48hr dissolvable plug which ensures that even empty containers sink within 72hrs.
I have to agree that this issue has been over hyped both in the media and here.
We realy have to think of proportions.....yes this is a serious marine and ecological incident.
But in the larger sceme of things this is a small oil spill
there have been others of a similar scale but this one is in a very popular and visable place.
I can remember ( not well) oil on the gold coast beaches and other places in the past.
I do not believe this can correctly be called a disaster, calamity or any of the currently commonly over used sensational words.
If a the whole ship went down or worse ran aground spilling its whole load of oil and cargo in shallow water and loss of life..... that would befiitely be a disaster.... the extent of the polution would have been far greater, the damage to the environment would have been massive.
happily the containers seem to have fallen into very deep water and 600 tonnes of anything soluable and basicly low in toxisity will disipate quite sucessfully with very little real damage. ......Consider this in comparison to the amount of neutrient run off that comes down our rivers all the time
As to the oil.......yep the damage is done......what is the point of scraping up the sludge when more is still comming ashore.
from what I understand too, over a little time, that which does not disipate tends to thicken and clump as the volotiles evaporate out of it.
looking at the visual impact and "shouting do something, do something". realy isnt helpfull. certainly get out and help the larger animals if you like.
But as far as the big picture and significant results in the environment.... nothing helpfull is going to happen quickly........It will be slow, uggly and very dirty work.
One of the bigest considerations when cleaning up any "spill" ( even in your garage ) is what are you going to do with the contaminated material.
I saw the footage on the TV of a backhoe scraping up heaps of good clean sand along with the filth.....and where was it going.......there is no point till there is a contained place or thing to put the waste into.
Cleaning up serious environmental spills is something that a council backhoe operator probaly isnt trained in.
It is possible to make a real mess and particularly in this case produce many times the necessary amount of contaminated material which then has to be dumped as toxic waste redardless of its actual toxisity.
as to the other issues
where else is the ship going to go? This is a damaged ship with a potentialy expolosive situation on board and more cargo that may be at risk of comming adrift.
It has to go to the nearest port capable of handling the situatuion... so apart from brisbane where is the nearest container port?
A ship of that size should easily be able to handle all sorts of weather.... the main issue is that the cargo was not properly secured.
But the marine investigation will reveal many things.
There are many things that this incident should raise....particularly disaster (oops that word) incident planning and a few other things.
Lets all calm down... getting all bitter and twisted about it wont help at all.
cheers
Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.
R. PittOctober 23, 2002Case Study Example for Oil Spill Movement and Fate
The following discussion is a summary of oil spill analysis and impact reports prepared by Woodward Clyde Consultants for numerous clients for submission to regulatory agencies. The following discussions are excerpts and summaries from these reports and indicate how impacts associated from oil spills can be evaluated, especially in regards to spill movement and dispersion. The fate and effects of oil spills on the environment, based on selected historical oil spill incidents, are also described.
There are three properties/behaviors of oil in sea water which are important with respect to the impacts of oil on the marine environment. They are: evaporation, emulsification and, to a much lesser degree, dissolution (solubility). Other properties such as density, boiling point, pour point, viscosity, etc., are less important or manifest themselves in the three prime properties listed. The lighter fraction of crude and heavy fuel oil and other volatile fractions (i.e., those of lower molecular weight) will evaporate to the air at a rate primarily dependent on vapor pressure of the oil. However, evaporation will be enhanced by high winds and rough sea conditions, which favor formation of aerosols and increased surface area; the faster and farther the oil spreads, the faster it evaporates. Cobet and Guard (1973) found that as much as 13 percent of the Bunker C fuel lost in the San Francisco Bay spill could have evaporated within 3 months and, depending on atmospheric conditions at the time, possibly even more would have evaporated.Fuel oil, lubricating oil, and similar components have few or no volatile components and thus will not readily evaporate. On the other hand, diesel fuel and other light “cutting” stocks are comprised primarily of components which evaporate rapidly. In general, the more toxic fractions are those which evaporate fastest, leaving a less toxic, more viscous, and more dense residue in the surface slick.
Oil‑in‑water and water‑in‑oil emulsifications do form and considerable quantities of oil may be bound up in this manner. In general, the lighter fractions will go into an oil‑in‑water emulsification more easily than heavier fractions but vigorous agitation and/or solvent-#emulsifier mixtures are usually required. As the hydrocarbon molecular weight increases, the emulsions become water‑in‑oil. These water‑in‑oil emulsions tend to form naturally and easily, especially with some wind and wave agitation. They are quite stable.
SPILL Date SPILLED TYPE Cleanup detergents Recovery
San Francisco 1971 840gal Bunker "C" No 10 months +
Even if you doubled the volatile component evaporation rate ( due to climatic difference between San Francisco and here, 26% of volatile components over 3 months does not sound like its Inert to me
Oh and by oil industry standards from the same study spills are categorized in the following manner
Minor Spill ‑ a discharge of oil less than 10,000 gals (238 bbl*);
Moderate Spill ‑ a discharge of oil of 10,000 to 100,000 gals (238 to 2,380 bbl); and
Major Spill ‑ a discharge of oil of more than 100,000 gals (2,380 bbl).
*Based on 42 gal/bbl
This spill, 30 tons is approx 30000 liters, or 7925gals
I reacon 7925gallons of anything is rather a lot,,, despite what oil companies say
Cheers
rando
the oil looks dark brown and thick is it light oil fuel??? also how much really spilt out??? it looks pretty bad. surely anthing done to help with cleanup is better than doing nothing.
if you leave your dirty dishes lying around for six months the insects will probably clean them for you but what about the shiit you have to put up with untill then.
Dean
Wow, I think that is the first 8 page topic I have read. Plenty more to come I reckon.
I don't have the knowledge to really comment on it, especially without being emotional.
But I was sitting at the Surf Club on Bribie Island yesterday arvo, thinking how rough it was.
You could barely see the tip of Moreton and it has eased a lot over the past couple of days.
Just can't believe these guys are out there in ships.
How bad has the weather got to be before they won't move into an area?
Very sad and dangerous.
If I get a chance I will be there with a shovel and bucket to help clean up.
I hope you guys who say it won't take long are right, I really do.
Cheers and thanks.
"Tackle Whore on a budget..."
Gonzo II – Brooker 4.5m 40hp Yam & Outlaw Kayak
Fish Well, Fish Egrell
http://www.ecofishersqld.org.au
there's guys out there all the time on big ships in that sort of weather mate, they sometimes just have to tough it out.
would any of you guys who have posted some of the emotional tripe in this thread go out in those conditions????? and here you are jumping up and down expecting some poor blokes (who probably have families too) to head out in those conditions and start trying to contain an oil spill. tell me ........ just how do you contain an oil spill in 40-50kt winds and 5m swell with another few metres of sea on that ...... i'm thinking it would be damn near impossible. i'd be pretty well certain that there's guys within the epa that are way more qualified/experienced on handling an oil spill than some of the "brains trust" that have posted on the last 8 pages. thanks to the guys who posted up some real info on what happens with oil spills.
This is certainly a highly visible environmental impact and a shocking thing to have happened but I wonder how much pollution enters Moreton Bay each time we have any significant runoff. The amount of oil from roads and nitrogen from garden and agricultural fertilizers probably makes this look like a normal (though highly visible)occurance to the EPA.
Neil
A Proud Member of
"The Rebel Alliance"
If it's to be road transported in Qld it's only 22,000 I believe. Were they going by road or rail once on shore? LOL, gotta love splitting hairs!
Cheers,
Tim
Carbon Really Ain't Pollution.
I'm still distressing....
That those pic...
Although I have no knowledge on this subject, I do not believe that such a claim could possibly be true. It clearly wasn't able to handle the weather at 3am Wednesday.
This ship left port (from Newcastle I believe, ) to head North at the same time as a category 4/5 cyclone was well established and was coming down the coast. The predicted track for the cyclone changed alot over the course of its life, but there was a real chance that the ship might have had to go through the cyclone, let alone just suffer the wild weather.
What if the cyclone didn't head out to sea on Tuesday? The MV Pacific Adventurer would have been coming around Sandy Cape off World Heritage Fraser Is at about that time. What would have happened then? Which port could it have turned towards?
Point is, it was IMHO a very stupid decision for it to sail when it did, and that decision has the potential to big environmental problems down here and hopefully will cost them millions in the repair bill.
Jeremy
"The underlying spirit of angling is that the skill of the angler is pitted against the instinct and strength of the fish and the latter is entitled to an even chance for it's life."
(Quotation from the rules of the Tuna Club Avalon, Santa Catalina, U.S.A.)
Apathy is the enemy
FNQ i can not disagree with you about the possability of far greater disasters of course this could a occur and if ships are alound to motor into a Cat 4 Cyclone in the future it will happen again. Yes we are lucky that it wasnt crude, and yes the enviroment will recover over time.
But i live , play and fish in these areas, i respect the enviroment and if things change i will put my 2 cents into the scenario, i also love FNQ and would say the same if it occured up your way. So as far as arguments go on the science i wont disagree and to talk about visual pollution opposed to clear oil should it make a difference? If we can help we should, far to often we sit back and make comment about should of, could of without acting. Down our way we have been arguing about the green zones with the EPA, we discussed issues like this being that polution in the bay is far more an issue that the ametur fisho.
I was prawning last night and was disgusted by seeing the ship being towed up the river to the dry dock, i know it should be done, but as Ray stated the EPA chemical to be washed into a Bay they have just recently spent over a year protecting. We throw over a lead sinker in a zone and we would be proscuted !!!
I think the whole thing is shamless and i put my hand up to help if its required.
Mick
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