Rocky Reef Fin Fishery proposals

[PinHead]

Pinhead says "the monies will only go into consolidated revenue" Oldboot says "All the moneys from the fishing licence will be consumed administering it"

Funny stuff, when the government of the day finally introduces it you guys will probably be right because we won't have had much if any input into it. You fight the inevitable and therefore create a self fullfilling prophecy.

Pure genius! This way you get to whinge about it when it is being introduced, and how you weren't listened to and how the money is being sucked out of it by bureaucracy, and then remind people you were right.

It is going to come, it is simply a matter of when and how much input we get. With the current economic climate and Queenslands' economy rolling down a very steep hill I expect we see it sooner rather than later. Yet again we will be reacting to what is pretty much cast in stone. We seem to be happiest when we are whinging, and if we have to drop our pants and back into the next piece of legislation so we can scream we have been shafted then that's what we do.

and your suggestion is???? accept it quietly. I am tired of all this Govt interventon into what amounts a complete load of crap. i will give you a good example...I am a refrigeration mechanic..at the moment i employ 7 people..each one has to have a refrigerant handling license..my company has to have a license to purchase refrigerant..what for? Because of some dribble started by a mulit national company about a hole in the ozone layer. I can be fined $20000 for letting a very small amount of refrigerant into the atmosphere ..BUT...the retail stores sell a/c units precharged and some dopey so called home handyman can illegally attempt to install the unit and stuff it up and release a few kilos into the atmosphere yet I am the moron that has to try and protect against this.

A fishing license is nothing more than a Govt grab for dollars..nothing more and nothing less...it will not do anything to buy out anyone nor protect fish stocks..just more meddling by severely incompetent Govts which are staffed by equally incompetent public servants at the upper levels.

[dayoo]

Phill and other Ausfish members,

The permit I am referring to is the recommended proposal of the RRFF working group whereby a recreational boat owner upon application is issued with a RRFF logbook and boat sticker identifying the boat and its owner as having a permit from Fisheries to catch RRFF species. The logbook is only used to record snapper at this stage which will assist Fisheries to monitor the tonnage or number of snapper recorded. In Queensland State Government decision making processes a licence is a regulatory matter whereas a permit is non regulatory and usually is more flexable in its administration.

This "permit" allows the permitees ( recreational boat owners) to have an input into the conditions of the permit and any monitoring decisions. I am not aware of any proposed fees as recreation anglers are only assisting Fisheries in managing RRFF species.

Got a big day tomorrow with Fisheries and will keep you informed.

Cheers
Barry

[straddie]

Heya Dayoo

Appologies for being one of the hijackers.

Barry said "I am not aware of any proposed fees"
If the "permit" is introduced at no cost I don't have a problem with it. Otherwise my view is unchanged. Good luck regardless.

now some replies

[oldboot]

The catch card realy does not worry me... apart from the fact that the DPI are not giving an option..... they are using standover tactics ( threats of closures)to enforce it.

It is their desire to brand my @r$& like a cow that offends me.......putting a sticker on my boat.... it will achieve nothing......

All these guys want to do is show us who is boss and go on a power trip.

They'll be the first against the wall come the revolution.

cheers

[straddie]

Heya Gary Fooks

I would look into those state statistics a bit more closely you might find trends prior to the introduction of licenses that suggest they are not the cause of the low participation levels in those states.

I see much of what you have written as reasons why we should push forward for a license on our terms and not when the greens whisper in the governments ears. I really don't think I am being naive to believe that a license framework created, put forward and promoted by recreational fishermen would produce much better results than sitting back and letting the likes of the greens and epa blind side us with their version of one.

I guess it comes down to, "do you believe there will ever be a QLD recreational fishing license?" If you answer no then there is no point in entering the debate. If you answer yes then reread the above paragraph.

[TimiBoy]

The catch card realy does not worry me... apart from the fact that the DPI are not giving an option..... they are using standover tactics ( threats of closures)to enforce it.

It is their desire to brand my @r$& like a cow that offends me.......putting a sticker on my boat.... it will achieve nothing......

All these guys want to do is show us who is boss and go on a power trip.

They'll be the first against the wall come the revolution.

cheers

Joe,

I don't usually disagree with you, but this time around I do, here's why!

The discussions I've been a part of have clearly indicated that all are aware that if we don't introduce some controls now, we will get worse later. It's a sad reality (at least IMO it is) that there IS a problem with the Fishery. If that is accepted, we have the option of helping choose the method of management, or setting ourselves outside it. The consequence of that would be draconian measures which no one will like.

By introducing catch cards, and supporting them, we are not being branded by anyone. There are necessary steps which must be taken to ensure compliance, and that will likely include a sticker on your boat. I will be proud to wear that sticker, it will demonstrate that I am actively participating in the management of the Fishery, and in the collection of excellent data which will enable the future management of our Fishery and others.

By supporting this, and helping develop what has the potential to end up being a World Leading system for the management and collection of data regarding our Fishery, we will at the least have a say in where we go.

Cheers,

Tim

[oldboot]

My issue is not the existance of catch cards or for that matter the sticker.

But the fact that there IS NO CHOICE and it has been deliberatly presented that way.

They are pissing in my pocket and telling me it is raining.

Thay are offering a only one possible acceptable choice the others being so unacceptable no body would accept them.

this is "Yes Minister" chapter and verse.

all this on the premise that someone thinks there is a problem and instead of doing some proper resarch to find out the extent and distribution of the problem, thay are taking the lazy option of what amounts to a survey (which will while better that what is current) will still have a very low level of accuracy.

consider all this will have little effect on the southern border because NSW has a significantly smaller minimum catch size.

Oh I could go on and on
It is a very agressively presented bandaid measure... that is what realy offends me.

cheers

[BigE]

By introducing catch cards, and supporting them, we are not being branded by anyone. There are necessary steps which must be taken to ensure compliance, and that will likely include a sticker on your boat. I will be proud to wear that sticker, it will demonstrate that I am actively participating in the management of the Fishery, and in the collection of excellent data which will enable the future management of our Fishery and others.

Timiboy you are tripping!!! collection of data for the man has never helped rec fisherman get more or better access to fish.

BigE

[honda900]

I personally see the catch cards as the first step towards licencing, once you have to register to get your sticker it will be the beginning of the end and DPI know this and see this as a revenue raising mechanism for the future.

What I would like to see is some basic research into the licensing scheme as presented in NSW, and the impacts that this has had on the population of fish species, the amount of people who obtain licences as opposed to those who dont and it should be conducted by an independent body, not commissioned by the DPI to get factural unbiased results.

Also why does QLD snapper stocks suffer so badly when the NSW bag limits are double and at a reduced size? why are they not affected? they also have the largest population of all the states of australia.

The catchard system will be quite frankly rorted to the enth degree until DPI has a compliance officer at each ramp 24/7.

Most people have taken their eye away from the secondary species to be included such as; Mahi Mahi, kingfish, amberjack, grass sweetlip and cobia. Once this is agreed DPI will be able to add restrictions to these species at will yet still with no science to back any of this up.

My personal vote is for bag limit reductions and size increases for all.

I think we should be fighting harder.

Regards
HOnda

[TimiBoy]

Timiboy you are tripping!!! collection of data for the man has never helped rec fisherman get more or better access to fish.

BigE

Mate,

You could be right, and all the evidence from the past leans towards your statement being correct. But can I offer this as a rebuttal:

I've sat in a couple of Rocky Reef meetings, and I've listened to the DPI Scientists. They are interested in the science, and are, frankly, excited at the level of data this offers. They believe it will bring about world class SCIENCE BASED solutions. They are Rec Anglers, too. They are NOT EPA.

Anglers have helped out before, and got stung. We will not be telling them where we caught the fish, apart from regional information.

The instrument will not be Legislated, ie. it is completely different from a license, but yes, it can be used to research other species, and I'd say that will come, and it's probably necessary!

We have 2 choices. We WILL be regulated in some way.

1. We can sit back and whinge every time something is done TO us.

2. We can choose to help supply the lacking science we have all complained about, in the hope it will help our cause.

I don't want to be labelled a whinger, so it's number 2 for me.

Of course it is the Minister that will make the decisions. Let's hope whoever the Minister turns out to be is an intelligent one.

Enforcement is a key issue, and runs a high tide right through all the discussions. The DPI know if it is not taken care of, the whole thing will be a joke.

So instead of folks saying "it won't work so stuff it (the negative side)" can we please start saying "We know it's coming, so let's try and influence the outcome in a positive fashion?" At worst, it will be sh!t, but we'll all be happier, especially the twits who love to say "I told you so."

But just imagine it goes well. Just for a moment.

"Queensland leads World in Scientific Stock Management - Recreational Anglers take the Lead."

It is possible. Can we try for it?

Please?

Tim

[oldboot]

There are two phrases that should ring allarm bells

"WORLD"S BEST PRACTICE"

and

"WORLD CLASS"

Both are frequently used by those wishing to reduce standards and to justify why they are not doing more or better.

Both phrases actulay mean, we are no worse than some of the others.

We now have "world class" public utilities operated on "worlds best practice", in reality it means that our reliability and service level have been reduced in line with overseas expectations........

Back to the so called research

Our fisheries managers are still almost completely reliant on "catch bassed population assessment" and this is the information they are gathering.

In the past where we had a "scrape it all up' commercial fishery and a "take as much as you can catch" recreational fishery.....catch levels probably had a fair to reasonable relationship to population levels.

Even then there has been very poor data collected on discards, bycatch and by-product spicies.

Now with complete structrulal, economic and philisophical change to our fishery catch rates have less and less relationship to actual population levels......

I and many others have a very big problem with the unwillingness of the DPI to even attempt to do any direct measuerment or observation of the snapper population.

They will continue with their highly inaccurate and fundamentaly flawed computerised modeling which can not be varified and can not possibly take into account the massive structrual changes to the fishery.

There is a real problem with this total reliance of "catch bassed population assessment" and it extends to every decision made in fisheries management.
as the structrue of the fishery changes due all the reasons that we see, this method of popualtion assessment will become more and more irrelivent and inaccurate.

So DPI scientists getting excited by the data that would come from a catch card is very concerning.

If you were at the RRFF meetings and are keeping informed about the process, go take a read of "Guidelines for the ecologically sustainable management of fisheries- 2007" and you will see what the federal governmebt expects, and compare that to the process we have been subject to.

We realy do need to be agitating at every point for better fisheries science and more informed fisheries management.
In truth I do not believe that fisheries management has come all that far in Australia since the 70's.

cheers

[TimiBoy]

Neither term has been used by anyone at the meetings. I've condensed what's been said. There is a genuine will in the meetings to come up with a solution. We have had more consultation than usual - maybe not enough, and certainly the feeling was that the decisions had already been made, but I'm not convinced of that any more.

I have heard several, including the independent reviewer, say that catch based population assessment using recreational catches is valid. The problem with the data here is that there are many variables, and a lack of consistency. OK, so this means we do nothing? Or we wait 2 more years? Make DPI do the research and refuse to help (gee, that'll put them on side)? Ask WA about what happens when your Snapper fishery collapses, and what measures therefore had to take place?

But let's just decide, shall we, that we don't like the potential good outcome, so we'll just say "It's a crap process I don't like it It's not in the rules I'm not going to play up yours get effed so nyah!!!"

Goodo. I'm selling my boat, because the regime we'll cop if we don't try to be a part of it will make it useless. God knows why we would try to use the best opportunity we have yet had to actually make a difference. I can' wait to get drunk tonight, and forget the world.

EFF some people are pig headed.

Tim

[oldboot]

No it does not mean we do nothing.

As i have said a number of times I am not against the catch card. I am disapointed that we are being told we have a choice and we don't.

Consider also that overall catch rates of snapper will be affected by the MBMP restrictions.

As far as the ESTIMATE of recreational catches beeing valid, If that means the best educated guess that they can make, yep it is valid. But it is nothing more than that, a statisticaly derived estimate, bassed on a phone survey.
An approximately .05% sample of a .05% sample, a smaller portion of which came from the SE where there is a snapper fishery.

The modeling is bassed on figures from the past who's validity can not be confirmed and the consistency of which is very doubtfull.

DPI scietists I have spoken to are very touchy when chalenged about the accuracy and simply insist that it is valid.


They are prepared to insist that technology advantages the angler but they are unwilling to accept that the fish are smart and learn how not to get caught and to stay away from boats.

It has been agiven from the outset that there will be a closure and there will be recreational cath reporting. The department has deliberaly framed an ambit claim to ensure they get what they want.

They are conducting a consultation process because they are required to and they are simply using it to validate their original decision with some fiddling arround the edges which has now taken up quite a lot of money, effort and time.

The still resist the notion of any attempt to make direct studdies of the fish in place.

cheers

[Moonlighter]

Tim, Barry or Bill can correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the rec sector reps actually put forward the concept of the catch card system in some form that is now being considered.

That being the case Oldboot, your railling about having no choice and it being forced on us is somewhat (actually no, its totally) redundant, methinks....

ML

[dayoo]

Moonlighter,
Your observations are SPOT ON. I can't believe the dribble that is continuously posted by a few people on this website so thats why I don't bother to reply to pessimistic and negative comments. It only fuels more dribble.

I and the other recreation reps on the RRFF working group are wise to how the government processes work and we would rather be proctive and stand up for recreation anglers so that we can have some say in the process and work with Fisheries towards what we want rather than what they want to impose upon us. We are not dealing with EPA here.

Four month snapper closure for 10 years vs catch cards. I know which choice most thinking anglers prefer.

Cheers
Barry