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Thread: Two Headed Fish.

  1. #1

    Two Headed Fish.

    Narooma Port Committee
    Chairman Dr. Philip Creagh BVSc.
    Secretary Mr. John Moore[/font]

    Some of you may have heard of the “two headed” fish story emanating from Queensland
    [
    In fact this is a shining example of co-operation between Australia’s leading Fish Veterinary Scientist Dr. Matt Landos together several skilled marine biologists, a DPI pathologist and a fish hatchery operator have highlighted a key threatening process causing havoc to the reproductive capacity of native fish.


    This, of course, has everything to do with NSW Marine Parks. It is clear that if the vast sum of money wasted on regulating the currently ineffective Marine park sanctuary zones were to be more sensibly spent on undertaking research on the threatening processes of estuaries from spray drift/run-off, and in restoring estuarine environments with wetlands and catchment rivers with buffer strip plantings, our fisheries would be in much better shape for all.

    This example of co-operation between Marine science and Veterinary Science is a prime example of cutting edge investigation into the real issues surrounding biodiversity and fisheries conservation.

    The Youtube video is here

    [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXAb0nzKDeI[/FONT]


    Please see attached the images of bass larvae with two heads, the farm
    Dams with macadamia orchard in the background, the hatchery building and tanks.

    This case has offered a unique insight into the impacts of chemical spray drift and run-off on breeding fish.

    I have a high degree of suspicion that this case in the hatchery, where broodfish are effectively having their fertility sterilised by the chemical spray drift. This is happening in rivers and waterways around Australia where these chemicals are being used.

    The safety of these chemicals and their breakdown products has never been reviewed on fish larvae, or reproductively mature broodfish (for damage on fish eggs and fish milt).

    Urgently the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority (APVMA- the national chemical registration body) needs to review the impact of these chemicals across all industries where they are in use on aquatic ecosystems.

    Carbendazim- removed from registration in USA in 2001 due to concerns over reproductive effects on humans. Currently the label is under review by APVMA, as they are considering putting more warnings on the label regarding reproductive impacts on humans.

    It is highly likely to affect human embryo development- and highly likely to affect other embryos – it is scientifically proven to affect frog embryos (see science paper)

    Endosulfan- banned in EU and New Zealand. Legal in Australia.

    Organophosphates (Supracide(methidathione) and chlorpyrifos)

    Please contact Dr Ben Diggles at Bribie Island as a more local contact …. 0403773592

    Or contact me back.
    02 6687 5358

    Regards
    Dr Matt Landos


    This email / letter is published here with permission.




    phill
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    .
    .
    Last edited by Lucky_Phill; 13-01-2009 at 03:59 PM.
    Kingfisher Painting Solutions:- Domestic and Commercial.

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  2. #2

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    I find this very very disturbing.

    I think you , me , the farmers, the EPA and all other associated government bodies have known about this and similar effects of chemicals on our Fishery for a long time.

    I cannot condone using chemicals to assist one Primary Industry and have that chemical decimate another.

    This must stop.


    phill
    .
    .
    .
    Kingfisher Painting Solutions:- Domestic and Commercial.

    For further information, contact details, quotes or advice - Click Here





  3. #3

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    I think a few posters who have been stirring those from Tassie better start looking in their own backyard,

  4. #4

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    Seems to be an influx of taswegians on the sunshine coast of late......
    Jack.

  5. #5

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    I hate to be the bearer of negativity but that single two headed fish might be food for the two headed cat that was born a little while ago.
    Genetic mutations happen all the time.
    That's just something Darwin thought up one night when he couldn't sleep much.

    I'm not saying there's isn't a problem because there is a problem with agricultural sprays and if you knew the precautions farmer have to take now to apply sprays you'd be wary of them but just because a 2 headed fish turns up is not a sole reason to jump up and down in my books.
    There's a lot of others things that should be looked at as well to ensure the future successful pawning of our native fishes as well as our native plants and animals but as per usual looking at one possible cause ie spraying and blaming that seems the norm now. ie the Bay's buggered...ban fishing. That'll fix it.
    I intend on living for-ever....so far so good


  6. #6

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    Two heads are better than one and besides you'd be an unfortunate bloke with only one head Think about it lol
    Grow old disgracefully

  7. #7

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    "Two heads are better than one and besides you'd be an unfortunate bloke with only one head"

    But having one head could have saved a lot of us a lot of money, given us less worry, etc, etc

    Mike

  8. #8

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    Deano1 I think you should be getting behind this because a fish with two heads is going to be easier to catch (two mouths) and lets face it you need all the help you can get!!!

  9. #9

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    Glad you guys think it's funny, SEQWater has put an immediate stop to almost all fish stocking in SEQld.
    A lot more info here. http://www.sweetwaterfishing.com.au/...c,2890.15.html

  10. #10

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    sydney morning herald story regarding this :
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...608708295.html

  11. #11

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    Yes Scotty, I know what you mean.

    I think in this particular case it has been proven scientifically ( independent ) that there is a case to answer at this particular hatchery at this particular time.

    I think the other guys here that made light of the situation are OK, but really it is necessary to take action now. Hope you have emailed or written to the people suggested in the video.

    TX Greg and M62 for the links.

    Phill
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    .
    .
    .
    Last edited by Lucky_Phill; 14-01-2009 at 06:53 AM.
    Kingfisher Painting Solutions:- Domestic and Commercial.

    For further information, contact details, quotes or advice - Click Here





  12. #12

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    Quote Originally Posted by finga View Post
    I hate to be the bearer of negativity but that single two headed fish might be food for the two headed cat that was born a little while ago.
    Genetic mutations happen all the time.
    That's just something Darwin thought up one night when he couldn't sleep much.

    I'm not saying there's isn't a problem because there is a problem with agricultural sprays and if you knew the precautions farmer have to take now to apply sprays you'd be wary of them but just because a 2 headed fish turns up is not a sole reason to jump up and down in my books.
    There's a lot of others things that should be looked at as well to ensure the future successful pawning of our native fishes as well as our native plants and animals but as per usual looking at one possible cause ie spraying and blaming that seems the norm now. ie the Bay's buggered...ban fishing. That'll fix it.

    Finga, You do the scientists and vets who have worked on this case a great discredit when you suggest these sorts of things, especially as its clear you have absolutely no understanding of the extent of the investigation that has been done. The people involved here are aquatic animal health specialists. We are aware of the "normal" deformities caused by random mutations ect. Its our job to know this and we see these things on a regular basis in other hatcheries. However in this case the type and extent of the deformities is clearly abnormal , and very strongly correlated to chemical sprays in an adjacent farm. When your larvae are convulsing in the tank, but recover and behave normally after dosing with atropine (an antidote for some of the chemicals involved), you have an extremely strong link between chemicals sprayed on the farm next door in the previous 24 hours and what is happening in the hatchery tanks, even though the doses of chemicals the fish are being exposed to are minute. Then there is the issue of the two headed bass spawned from wild fish taken from the Noosa River. Why were wild caught Noosa River bass (not one fish, but several breeding pairs) held in the hatchery only for a short period of time (ie. they are not aquacultured fish) spawning such high numbers of deformed larvae, with the most common deformity being two heads ? The fact that 100% of these bass larvae died within 48 hours surely suggests there is a problem which needs to be thoroughly investigated. Its virtually impossible for fishermen to catch 100% of the adult bass in a river, but if you poison the water its possible to kill 100% of the larvae (which are much more sensitive to chemicals at particular stages of their development than are adult fish). While no-one sees the dead larvae (they are only a few mm long and for all intents and purposes invisible), the end result is the same - it just takes a few years to kill off the fish population, quietly, but effectively. This may be the tip of an unpalatable iceberg, and the State government has tried to firstly ignore and then play down the problem. But the issue is too compelling to ignore, their own government pathology report implicates pesticide contamination as the only possible causative factor that explains all of the syndromes observed, and the media have been given the report and are awake to the usual games and are keeping the government honest. The green groups , however, have been noticeably silent on the matter to date - I guess it doesn't really fit their agendas....

    Good thing is, if we follow though on this one and get some real changes on what pesticides are used, and how they are used, and how they are screened for safety (i.e. include fish larvae in testing) we may indeed reap many valuable benefits for the health of our aquatic ecosystems and fisheries into the future.... This is really the first instance I know where we can stop saying "pollution is an issue" in a non specific manner, and clearly link reductions in fish recruitment (by reduced viability of eggs and larvae) to commonly used pesticides which are being used legally and as per the label all around the country. Yes the main problem is in a hatchery, but if the hatchery wasn't there, we would never have known about the issue with the local bass, and in 10 years might well have never exactly determined why the fishing in the river began to go downhill when the macca farms came. So there is a corpse with a big hole in it, a smoking gun, and the government is suggesting its not a shooting because they can't find the bullet....

    So start writing those letters everyone. This is one issue where we can really benefit our fisheries if we get it right.

  13. #13

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    Thanks for that post Ben and for being part of the crew that bought this to the forefront as a major issue.

    We should all get behind this as this is a prime example of the issues that are affecting our fish stocks, rec fishos can't be blamed for this one and a green zone won't help. Where is the QLD Conservation Council etc in this? Once again Simon Baltais is quiet as a mouse.
    Cheers,
    Chris

  14. #14

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben D View Post
    Finga, You do the scientists and vets who have worked on this case a great discredit when you suggest these sorts of things, especially as its clear you have absolutely no understanding of the extent of the investigation that has been done. The people involved here are aquatic animal health specialists. We are aware of the "normal" deformities caused by random mutations ect. Its our job to know this and we see these things on a regular basis in other hatcheries. However in this case the type and extent of the deformities is clearly abnormal , and very strongly correlated to chemical sprays in an adjacent farm. When your larvae are convulsing in the tank, but recover and behave normally after dosing with atropine (an antidote for some of the chemicals involved), you have an extremely strong link between chemicals sprayed on the farm next door in the previous 24 hours and what is happening in the hatchery tanks, even though the doses of chemicals the fish are being exposed to are minute. Then there is the issue of the two headed bass spawned from wild fish taken from the Noosa River. Why were wild caught Noosa River bass (not one fish, but several breeding pairs) held in the hatchery only for a short period of time (ie. they are not aquacultured fish) spawning such high numbers of deformed larvae, with the most common deformity being two heads ? The fact that 100% of these bass larvae died within 48 hours surely suggests there is a problem which needs to be thoroughly investigated. Its virtually impossible for fishermen to catch 100% of the adult bass in a river, but if you poison the water its possible to kill 100% of the larvae (which are much more sensitive to chemicals at particular stages of their development than are adult fish). While no-one sees the dead larvae (they are only a few mm long and for all intents and purposes invisible), the end result is the same - it just takes a few years to kill off the fish population, quietly, but effectively. This may be the tip of an unpalatable iceberg, and the State government has tried to firstly ignore and then play down the problem. But the issue is too compelling to ignore, their own government pathology report implicates pesticide contamination as the only possible causative factor that explains all of the syndromes observed, and the media have been given the report and are awake to the usual games and are keeping the government honest. The green groups , however, have been noticeably silent on the matter to date - I guess it doesn't really fit their agendas....

    Good thing is, if we follow though on this one and get some real changes on what pesticides are used, and how they are used, and how they are screened for safety (i.e. include fish larvae in testing) we may indeed reap many valuable benefits for the health of our aquatic ecosystems and fisheries into the future.... This is really the first instance I know where we can stop saying "pollution is an issue" in a non specific manner, and clearly link reductions in fish recruitment (by reduced viability of eggs and larvae) to commonly used pesticides which are being used legally and as per the label all around the country. Yes the main problem is in a hatchery, but if the hatchery wasn't there, we would never have known about the issue with the local bass, and in 10 years might well have never exactly determined why the fishing in the river began to go downhill when the macca farms came. So there is a corpse with a big hole in it, a smoking gun, and the government is suggesting its not a shooting because they can't find the bullet....

    So start writing those letters everyone. This is one issue where we can really benefit our fisheries if we get it right.
    Yep, I have to agree that on what you have said about pesticides and specially about investigations and studies are needed to see why the problems are occurring BUT what I was trying to say was that there may be other reasons, or a combination of reasons, for the deformities which have to be investigated as well ie site was used as a chemical dump decades ago or seepage from a road accident etc etc.
    IMO all possible avenues should be considered not just the obvious.
    But I'm not going to argue as IMO the reasons (what ever they are) need to be found and found quickly and if the poisons are doing this then they need to be stopped.
    I'm very curious about another statement here....The green groups , however, have been noticeably silent on the matter to date - I guess it doesn't really fit their agendas.... I wonder why this is?? What is your take on it if you would not mind??

    Anyways thanks for the post. It was a good read, good luck with the research and I truly hope answers are found whether they be the sprays or other.

    PS Your probably also fairly correct in stating I
    "have absolutely no understanding of the extent of the investigation that has been done".
    I did not know exactly to what extent research has been done.
    For those who put links up telling me that I thank you too.

    PSS letter gone

    I intend on living for-ever....so far so good


  15. #15

    Re: Two Headed Fish.

    "what I was trying to say was that there may be other reasons, or a combination of reasons, for the deformities which have to be investigated as well ie site was used as a chemical dump decades ago or seepage from a road accident etc etc."

    The hatchery has been there for over 20 years - they know their stuff and how to breed fish. They never had any problems until the macca farms began to pop up around them aboput 10 years ago and in the past few years the situation has simply got worse to the point that this year the only way they managed to successfully spawn any fish was to get both broodstock and water from off site - they couldn't use their own broodstock fish, or wild fish from the river or even water from local bores or the river.

    Also, the hatchery manager had begun to suffer from several chronic health syndromes, and there were other issues with chickens and other livestock on the farm, such that vet involved suggested they no longer drink the tank water like they have done for over 20 years. Funnily enough, the switch to bottled water has apparently resulted in marked improvement in the health of the hatchery manager. Placebo effect ? Who knows, but check this out - not the first time we've seen this problem locally
    http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=i68M6qR1c6w

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