Static deflection & guide placement

[Adam_G]

Hi All,

I am moving along with my second ever rod build as the first was so much fun and once again need some assistance and input.

I have managed to pick up another cheap blank (need more practise before spending real money), it's a 4-6kg 6 foot long baitcaster this time. I have the reel seat and grips glued in place (so much easier second time ) but the main question this time is on guides.

When the guides are taped in place, reel fitted and line fed through, how much load should be placed on the rod to make sure the line won't touch the blank if loaded up with a fish? I ask because when I put a lot of load on the rod the guides twist to the side as the masking tape is only so strong.

Am I loading the rod too much?

Also when finding the spine I have been shown to lay the blank on a bench, lift the tip with 1 finger and put pressure down on the mid section with other hand and where the wants to twist to is the effective spine.

When I try the Doc Ski method (thanks to Finga for the lend of DVD) of putting the tip in a bearing support and letting the butt hang off rollers I get a different spine to the first method.

Any comments would be great.

Thanks
Adam

[metaloid]

It's not unusual for a blank to have multiple spines (well, more than 2). Try to pick the best one.

For a light-ish blank, I find that holding the tip and rolling it between my fingers is the easiest, but the Doc Ski method is 100% fool-proof if you have the right setup.

Re. loading the blank, even with single foot guides I find that a couple of wraps of tape is plenty strong... If you get that much twist, it could be that you're not building on the spine (opposite side for baitcaster).

[DR]

you will also find that a lot of spines will twist as they go down the blank. I always had a preference of backboning down in the working section of the rod, sort of around & above the stripper guide, because if you on do the tip & it is slightly twisted it will fall to one side under load.
My preferred method was to put the butt on the floor, or any hard smooth surface, & a finger on the working section with my thumb up towards the tip, load blank with the thumb & it will usually click into the strongest spine. with practice you will find it very easy & have no need for ball bearing spine locators.

[Adam_G]

Thanks, I have found it easier useing the manual metheod than a tool to find the spine.

Metaloid, I may just need to use more tape. Once I have spined the rod I put the guides on the outside of the curve for a baitcaster, it was more the guides slipping to the side not the blank twisting.

Thanks again
Adam

[Mark Fisher]

Adam,

Mate ALL baitcasters with the traditional guides on top style will twist to some degree. It comes down to physics. Under stress the line is always trying to find its way to the lowest point. On a spinning rod, the line is already at the lowest point of the guides and so cannot twist.

The only real way of beating the twist factor is to build a baitcaster using one of the spiral wrap methods where the line is spiralled from the top of the blank to the bottom. This style rod has to be fished with first before you will believe how stable they are. I have also found, the dual helix rods made by Graphite USA and United are a superior blank to build on for a baitcaster as the dual helix construction helps prevent the savage twist. The blank itself stays round instead of partially collapsing under pressure. IMHO.


Regards
Mark

[Adam_G]

I have been fishing all my life in all sorts of different situations with heaps of different rods and I am finding I was always aware of rod dynamics but it has become a lot more apparant recently how important this is and it is not as easy as wacking a few giudes on a blank.

I am enjoying this learning curve (ha ha that almost sounds funny) its really a science.

Keep all the advise comming I need to soak up a lot more yet.

Adam

[finga]

I had the same problem on the overheads.
So I thought if they want to fall over I'd let them.
I turned to overhead into a spiral wrap.

But seriously Adam it helps if someones there to give a hand.
The cook's better at spacing the guides on them then me
I'm just the dumb ass pulling on a rod

[fishermen fred]

I may be way off the mark on this one but i here a lot of guys on the rodbuilder site talking about building on the straightest axis rather than the spine does any one out there over here do it this way?

Cheers,
Chris

[wheezer]

to determine static guide placement do not load the blank through the guides. this can force the blank into an unnatural or inefficeint working curve. instead try taping a length of leader to the tip section (tie a few grannys in it to stop it slipping out) attach the end of the leader to something heavy, run your line through the guides with a sinker on the end to keep it tight then load the rod. this loads the blank in its natural curve, and you'll be able to see where the line touches the blank and make any adjustments from there.

[Bruce_Bogtrotter]

to determine static guide placement do not load the blank through the guides. this can force the blank into an unnatural or inefficeint working curve. instead try taping a length of leader to the tip section (tie a few grannys in it to stop it slipping out) attach the end of the leader to something heavy, run your line through the guides with a sinker on the end to keep it tight then load the rod. this loads the blank in its natural curve, and you'll be able to see where the line touches the blank and make any adjustments from there.

if what you are saying about an unnatural working curve by using the guides etc,
using your system, isn't that saying it will change once you bind the guides on & defeating the purpose???

[Noelm]

this might sound a bit weird and almost an example of what not to do, but when I space the guides, I guess where the first one will go (stripper) then measure (say) 45CM, for the next one, 40CM for the third, 35 for the forth, get the idea? (that way they all look right when finished) after spacing them by the "measurement" method, I give the rod a test run with some line of the size I intend to use and might just need to move one guide just a tad to make it perfect (usually) seems to work a treat, the finished product looks good and it is easy, the actual measured increments need to be adjusted to suit the rod being built and the number of guides of course.

[Nog]

if what you are saying about an unnatural working curve by using the guides etc,
using your system, isn't that saying it will change once you bind the guides on & defeating the purpose???

What he's saying is that putting a load on the rod with the guides all over the place will put the rod out of shape in the first place (i.e. it won't bend on it's natural taper).

I would also like to add to wheezers advice. For positioning the first few guides, I'd load the rod (i.e. the tip top) so that the first quarter only bends. Once you have a nice guide placement of the first few guides,(you'll know when to stop as the line will be running virtually straight through the guides lower down the blank), load up the first half of the rod and paly around with the lower guides. Finally load up the rod so the the butt starts to bend (3/4 ) and do again. This way the rod's guides are well placed for progressive loads on the rod.

Norm