Here comes Ethanol

[Mike Delisser]

Not across all the facts yet but I do believe Bligh is talking about 5% Ethanol in fuel by 2010 with other blends without ethanol still available for some time.
Also you might not have noticed Chris but some Qld & Fed Nationals are criticizing Bligh for not going for more then 5%.
In the US they've been using 10% in boats for years, some states have 20%. The class action is for damages because some owners were not informed before it was brought in that 10% ethanol fuel could dissolve a certain type of old 70's & 80's fiberglass fuel tank.
The gumming of fuel lines is prevented by turning off the fuel and running the system out whenever your boat won't be started again for a week or more, like we used to do years ago. At least that's what all the outboard makers say will stop it.
Yes it is advisable to use a glass bowl fuel filter with ethanol fuels, but you should be using one now anyway. A 10 micron is recomended and comes standard from outboard makers these days.
Would I use 5% ethanol fuel? Only if other fuel wasn't available and only after I talked to my outboard mechanic about how I should prepare my boat for it.
Australia is one of the last countries in the world to go down this road and while some of us may need to make a few changes it's not the poison pill some will have you believe, boat owners abroad seem to manage it and the boating industry around the world have been preparing for it for it for a long time, and it will certianly come in.

Cut from Merc/Mariner, Evinrude & Yamaha websites

Merc/Mariner
How does ethanol affect my fiberglass fuel tank?

Fiberglass tanks manufactured prior to 1991 may not be compatible with gasoline containing ethanol. It has been reported that, in the presence of ethanol, some resins may be drawn out of fiberglass and carried into the engine where severe damage could occur. If an older fiberglass tank is used, check with the manufacturer to determine if gasoline with ethanol can be safely used.

Q-Are Mercury engines compatible with ethanol fuels?

A-The fuel-system components of Mercury engines will withstand up to 10 percent ethanol in gasoline - the maximum level currently allowed by the EPA in the U.S.

Q-Will the use of fuels containing ethanol void my engine warranty?

A-Fuels containing up to 10 percent ethanol are considered acceptable for use in Mercury engines. Fuels containing higher levels of ethanol are not considered acceptable for use, and the use of fuels containing ethanol higher than 10 percent can void the warranty.

Evinrude
Q - I live in an area where they only sell oxygenated fuels (Ethanol). Will this hurt my motor?
A - Oxygenated fuels should not hurt motors. Motors can tolerate up to 10% ethanol in fuels.

Yamaha
Q. Are Yamaha outboards motors, 4 stroke and 2 stroke, designed to operate on Ethanol Blended Fuels. All 2008 and later models are suitable for use with Ethanol E10 blended fuel.

(2000 to 2008 most are ok, just check with dealer) my note.



Originally Posted by birko

"Last time I looked world oil was running out and at record highs. So it is not going to get cheaper. Might be time to consider alternatives you think?
Birko"

PinHead said
"I would look again if I were you."


Pin is there room for me to come and live in your world, it sounds like a lovely place

Cheers
Mike

[FNQCairns]

Not across all the facts yet but I do believe Bligh is talking about 5% Ethanol in fuel by 2010 with other blends without ethanol still available for some time.
Also you might not have noticed Chris but some Qld & Fed Nationals are criticizing Bligh for not going for more then 5%.
In the US they've been using 10% in boats for years, some states have 20%. The class action is for damages because some owners were not informed before it was brought in that 10% ethanol fuel could dissolve some old 70's & 80's fiberglass fuel tanks.
The gumming of fuel lines is prevented by turning off the fuel and running the system out whenever your boat won't be started again for a week or more, like we used to do years ago. At least that's what all the outboard makers say will stop it.
Yes it is advisable to use a glass bowl fuel filter with ethanol fuels, but you should be using one now anyway. A 10 micron is recommended and comes standard from outboard makers these days.
Would I use 5% ethanol fuel? Only if other fuel wasn't available and only after I talked to my outboard mechanic about how I should prepare my boat for it.
Australia is one of the last countries in the world to go down this road and it may not some of us but other boat owners around the world seem to manage it and it will certianly come in.

Cut from Merc/Mariner, Evinrude & Yamaha websites

Merc/Mariner
How does ethanol affect my fiberglass fuel tank?

Fiberglass tanks manufactured prior to 1991 may not be compatible with gasoline containing ethanol. It has been reported that, in the presence of ethanol, some resins may be drawn out of fiberglass and carried into the engine where severe damage could occur. If an older fiberglass tank is used, check with the manufacturer to determine if gasoline with ethanol can be safely used.

Q-Are Mercury engines compatible with ethanol fuels?

A-The fuel-system components of Mercury engines will withstand up to 10 percent ethanol in gasoline - the maximum level currently allowed by the EPA in the U.S.

Q-Will the use of fuels containing ethanol void my engine warranty?

A-Fuels containing up to 10 percent ethanol are considered acceptable for use in Mercury engines. Fuels containing higher levels of ethanol are not considered acceptable for use, and the use of fuels containing ethanol higher than 10 percent can void the warranty.

Evinrude
Q - I live in an area where they only sell oxygenated fuels (Ethanol). Will this hurt my motor?
A - Oxygenated fuels should not hurt motors. Motors can tolerate up to 10% ethanol in fuels.

Yamaha
Q. Are Yamaha outboards motors, 4 stroke and 2 stroke, designed to operate on Ethanol Blended Fuels. All 2008 and later models are suitable for use with Ethanol E10 blended fuel.

(2000 to 2008 most are ok, just check with dealer) my note.



Originally Posted by birko

"Last time I looked world oil was running out and at record highs. So it is not going to get cheaper. Might be time to consider alternatives you think?
Birko"

PinHead said
"I would look again if I were you."


Pin is there room for me to come and live in your world, it sounds like a lovely place

Cheers
Mike

Mike send those company's an email and ask them to cover any and all incidental costs resulting from the use of ethanol outside of the warranty period, where the use of non oxygenated fuel should not have resulted in the same repair.

After all it is their recommendation that it can/should (for should see above) run on ethanol fuels. Ask them just how long it cannot be running after running ethanol fuels...would be interested in their official position.

PS I agree their engines can run on ethanol, it's just at sometime they will need to be turned off till next time they are run on ethanol...

Gotta read between the line it's very easy to design A FUEL SYSTEM TO HANDLE ETHANOL, very hard to white paper to change the laws of physics to safeguard bearings/rings/cyl walls from the corrosive compound it forms inside the engine immediately on layup, these fuels are a recreational outboard engine killer.

cheers fnq

[Scott nthQld]

As FNQ said before the "discount" at the pump for using ethanol blended fuels still does not cover the costs of less mileage so its still a more expensive alternative, til something is done about that, I'm sorry but the cane farmers can grin and bear it and the makers of Ethanol blends can shove it where the sun don't shine.

I simply refuse to use ethanol fuel in anything atm, until I buy a vehicle, outboard and other small engines that have been designed for ethanol use, I will see the manufacturers 'it can use ethanol, or it should be able to use ethanol without any dramas" as election time promises...in other words, nothing but bull plop. Whne the time comes that all fuel is ethanol blended and engines are designed to run on ethanol WITHOUT any mechanical or residual issues (still to be proven IMO) and without any added extras needed, I might reconsider, otherwise it will be back to the deadly treadly and landbased fishing.

I apoligose, but I don't think there is a crisis with the cane farmers, and those that have folded, I think its just down to poor management. I'm yet to meet a cane farmer without a spare 5 grand cash in their wallet and before you ask, I personally know several of cane farmers and they share this point of view, after all, that's where I got it from. And even if I was proven wrong, ethanol fuels will hardly be the saving grace, its just not popular with the public.

Birko, I have a few questions for you. Is Desiel available in ethanol blend (honestly don't know, and haven't done any research as I don't have anything that requires Deisel) and if so do you use it in the machinery that you have invested your livelihood in? If not available, would you use it in the future? And if you don't use it whether available or not, why not/wouldn't you? If you do, have you had any problems because of it, and does it save you any money?

[Mike Delisser]

Gday FNQ

Quote "PS I agree their engines can run on ethanol, it's just at sometime they will need to be turned off till next time they are run on ethanol..."

That's why outboard makers are recomending you run the line dry if it will sit idle for more than a week.

It wouldn't suprise me if the life of an outboard was shortened from using ethanol but the same must be said cars also which ATM are running on up to 85% in most EU countries, 10 to 20% in the US and a lot more Sth America.
BTW Merc just extended its warranty to 5 years with others to follow soon.

I've had a bit of a look but can't find any info on US fishing forums about outboard damage directly from ethanol, most seems to be from fibreglass fuel tanks disolving sludge in to the motor and that does the damage.
Found a link to this about that subject
http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp

It contains this piece the makes me question how wide spread the fibreglass issue is when you consider how many boats would be in California and The Great Lakes area but I note the info is from early 2006

"There have also been three complaints of the problem from California, which mandates a 5.6% blend of ethanol, as well two reported problems from the Great Lakes. Ethanol blends of up to 10% have been used in the Midwestern states for a many years."

As I said before I won't use it until I have to and I will prepare my boat first if it's required.
If today's news is right an fuel is $8 a litre within 10 years I'll be sailing to my fishing spots, (you can be my deckie PinHead )
Cheers
Mike

[FNQCairns]

Gday FNQ

Quote "PS I agree their engines can run on ethanol, it's just at sometime they will need to be turned off till next time they are run on ethanol..."

That's why outboard makers are recomending you run the line dry if it will sit idle for more than a week.

It wouldn't suprise me if the life of an outboard was shortened from using ethanol but the same must be said cars also which ATM are running on up to 85% in most EU countries, 10 to 20% in the US and a lot more Sth America.
BTW Merc just extended its warranty to 5 years with others to follow soon.

I've had a bit of a look but can't find any info on US fishing forums about outboard damage directly from ethanol, most seems to be from fibreglass fuel tanks disolving sludge in to the motor and that does the damage.
Found a link to this about that subject
http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp

It contains this piece the makes me question how wide spread the fibreglass issue is when you consider how many boats would be in California and The Great Lakes area but I note the info is from early 2006

"There have also been three complaints of the problem from California, which mandates a 5.6% blend of ethanol, as well two reported problems from the Great Lakes. Ethanol blends of up to 10% have been used in the Midwestern states for a many years."

As I said before I won't use it until I have to and I will prepare my boat first if it's required.
If today's news is right an fuel is $8 a litre within 10 years I'll be sailing to my fishing spots, (you can be my deckie PinHead )
Cheers
Mike

Nice thought but it doesn't work to change the rules of physics which is where the fix must come from to make ethanol 'work' in our engines but it does help the fuel system for what it's worth, although will heighten the destruction on internal surfaces, if ever you consider this first get the guarantee in writing as above as rust knows nothing of marketing or politics of opinion so often used to force fit a pre-existing ideology.


cheers fnq

[Mike Delisser]

Cheers mate.

[BrewGuru]

When you have Dubai running out of oil in 15 years and turning ther income to tourism with their palms island etc, we gotta look at alternatives and petrol reaching $8.00 a litre by 2018 as stated by the CSIRO not including inflation.
Ethanol is a bloody cheap alternative fuel to produce, its a product formed from fermented sugar or fruits containing fructose, far less processesing then crude oil, we just have ensure that the car and engine manufacturers have high alcohol resistant seals that can cope with the new fuel, the fuel being organic in IMHO would have less impact on the environment.
You can make the stuff at home, reminds of the good old days when I was making hi Octane fuel additives for some local guys at Lakeside.
The cane farmers in FNQ are producing ethanol as a form of energy and now putting it back into the electricty grid and being paid back rebates.
We cannot blame captain Bligh for the price of fuel, nor can we blame the Newby Mr Rudd it is a Global problem, they are protesting about the price of fuel in Germany, UK, US, Lithuania and any other big place, I think we have to look out of our own little square, look outside the square and look at alternatives, I think in the short term ethanol is the solution not the enemy, It is a combustible fuel it can't be that hard to make engines to cope with the change, we managed with the old leaded super to the unleaded super to the the ultra,mega reinforced 150% racing fuel, now we are coping with the 10% induced ethanol fuel, I think if ethanol was introduced the big oil companies and the others that that survive of them would lose uncountable amonts of money, I think the dangers of ethanol is a myth.

[Chris Ryan]

I agree alternative fuels are a must moving forward, but my point with this is that it is only cars and trucks and buses being looked at with this, and the fact that that there are several hundred thousand boats in QLD alone, that a full review across all users is needed, and one that ensures not only sustainability and renew-ability but one of safety of its users and their equipment.

Then again I am asking politicians from all sides to get common sense going in their policies regarding this and other boating/fishing related issues.

Chris

[birko]

As FNQ said before the "discount" at the pump for using ethanol blended fuels still does not cover the costs of less mileage so its still a more expensive alternative, til something is done about that, I'm sorry but the cane farmers can grin and bear it and the makers of Ethanol blends can shove it where the sun don't shine.

I simply refuse to use ethanol fuel in anything atm, until I buy a vehicle, outboard and other small engines that have been designed for ethanol use, I will see the manufacturers 'it can use ethanol, or it should be able to use ethanol without any dramas" as election time promises...in other words, nothing but bull plop. Whne the time comes that all fuel is ethanol blended and engines are designed to run on ethanol WITHOUT any mechanical or residual issues (still to be proven IMO) and without any added extras needed, I might reconsider, otherwise it will be back to the deadly treadly and landbased fishing.

I apoligose, but I don't think there is a crisis with the cane farmers, and those that have folded, I think its just down to poor management. I'm yet to meet a cane farmer without a spare 5 grand cash in their wallet and before you ask, I personally know several of cane farmers and they share this point of view, after all, that's where I got it from. And even if I was proven wrong, ethanol fuels will hardly be the saving grace, its just not popular with the public.

Birko, I have a few questions for you. Is Desiel available in ethanol blend (honestly don't know, and haven't done any research as I don't have anything that requires Deisel) and if so do you use it in the machinery that you have invested your livelihood in? If not available, would you use it in the future? And if you don't use it whether available or not, why not/wouldn't you? If you do, have you had any problems because of it, and does it save you any money?

Scott.
Bloody good question mate. No... there is no comercially available diesel ethanol blend at this point. Some trials have been done in the USA i believe but not available here. Yes I would use it in the future if it had the same availablity and reliability of current diesel, such as the current petrol ethanol blends do. There are systems you can set up for making diesel out of old cooking oil but the oil companies have gotten on to that by contracting your local fish and chip shop to not be allowed to on sell or give away the old oil and made to give it back to the oil supplier. There are diesel trees, but no real plantaions exist at this stage, yet is a case of sustainability that should not be discounted.

Its not a case of I want everyone to shove an ethanol blend into their outboard right now, as some are just not designed to run it, its just a point of we have a case of rising pertol prices and global oil shortage and we need to do something. If ethanol is part of the solution than the motor manufactueres need to be told that, and given time to produce motors that will run the new fuel types, as the general public will be need to be given time to update to these changes which would need to be over a period of 5 to 15 years.

I am not looking for an arguement here, I just believe that ethanol has a place in, not fixing perhaps, but may help in relieving the burden of a problem that will affect everyone in the shorter term rather than the longer.

Its also not about the cane farmer, its just that sugar is in surplus and to use it doesnt affect food supply.

I agree many a cane farmer has gone bust due to poor management, but can you think of one business sector that this does not apply?

Hope you get out for a fish and catch a few this weekend mate.

Cheers
Birko

[nail]

Bligh is as leftwing as they come.

She wants more people to overcrowd qld but wants to enforce all this ethanol crap on us. the greenhouse gas output of qld will increase no matter what with her agenda.

5% ethanol won't make @#$% all difference with china and india going hard. Maybe if it was 50% or 20% ehtanol it would make some difference but then the fuel would be unuseable.

I dont care how much the fuel price goes up ill just drive and use a boat less but keep using the premium quality. Id rather my life and the life of oil is short and sweet rather than long and stupid.

Not to mention the population of qld is 3-4 million amongst billions of people in the world. These laws won't do FU all difference to worldwide gas output. It will be a blip.

very few people around the world care what some bimbo qld premier thinks. If china and india tried to cut gas output they would starve millions.

also have you seen how a sugar farm and cane farmers operate in general.

Some of them burn their cane and put all this ash and smoke, crap,etc. into the air. Send it to a big sugar mill that shoots out all this junk,etc. Spend their money on SUVs, landcruisers, 4 wheel drives, 4 wheelers, motorbikes,etc.

i like cane farmers and the industry,etc. but that is because i am not a leftwing hippie but you can't pretend cane farming industry and cane farmers are eco-friendly.

ethanol can work. but 100% regular petrol is the perfect stuff. 5% ethanol. Seriously it is nothing.

It is probably .0000000000000000001% of greenhouse gas output of the world

[FNQCairns]

What's worse is the very need to have this conversation falls under the umbrella of our carbon footprint, which is total ultra green pseudo science crapola at it's best.

The earth has a carbon budget just as it has a heat budget. Junk science confuses the two, mixes them up to the level of idiocy and spits out rubbish recommendations in keeping. They the 'X -Spurts' in reality do not have 5% of the data needed to assume a confidence level..it's all theory...same as time travel.

The above just adds injury to insult every time I hear some poor sucker spewing the doctrin....anyway I heard on TV from a very dubius source that to fill one SUV with ethanol needs the amount of grain equivalent to what would feed a human for a year!! Would be an intersting little specification to know the truth about.

cheers fnq

[nail]

Not to mention the tractor and heavy machinery fuel,oil,etc. As well as all the chemicals.

[reelchippy]

No point bagging out Bligh for it though. The other side are all for doing it more and faster, aren't they? They're all bloody politicians, all tarred with the same damn brush.

I'm sure life was easier in the jungle...

Will an ethanol mandate extend to 95 and 98 fuel? Sure as hell hope not...

Tim

Tim the only issue with that is when was the other side in power Bligh has to take that front on and fuel is a state issue

[Mike Delisser]

Also you might not have noticed but some Qld & Fed Nationals are criticizing Bligh for not going for more then 5%.

Cheers
Mike

I would say it's a world issue myself.


NSW Nationals leader Andrew Stoner said the states should legislate for the use of biofuels to erduce dangerous pollution.
"We know that a 10 per cent blend of ethanol fuel reduces cancer-causing particulates by 30 per cent," Mr Stoner said.
"We also know there are more people who die from vehicle-related pollution in Sydney than are killed on our roads."
From www.news.com.au

[BrewGuru]

We can all argue that we don't want to add ethanol to our fuel as long as our bums point to the ground, what we do have to get around our heads is the we are running out of land based oil fields, that is what the world economy runs on, be it fuel for shipping, machines for mining, heavy transport, heavy cranes, industrial machines or hydraulic operated machinery..
Ethanol is a combustable fuel as is Methanol (methylated Spirits) and organic processed oils, I am no greenie, but if the demand outways the limited availble supply we gotta go to plan B.

On another point!
Then we have the idiots climbing the chimneys at Swanbank Power Station, with graffiti stating "GO SOLAR" and power, what? Industry? Hospitals?, Water Treatment Plants? Steel manufacturing? Mining? you would have to chop down a lot of trees to house those solar panels.