Game Over

[rando]

Re: Game Over

Straddie.
Your access to and knowledge of, this fishery is not of the same order as most rec fishos.
I think you may have forgotten more than most rec fishos know about , how, when, where to fish.

The actual number of Recreational fishermen in Qld is I believe 800K, this figure however includes the "once a year fishermen",& their kids ,
Its my belief that the vast majority of them are these occasional fishermen.


For a better estimate of who is catching what. look no further than Ausfish.
There are more twenty thousand members here, I wonder how many took a bag limit of tailor in the last twelve months???
Ill try and do the search myself but I pretty hopeless with computers so if someone has the skills and inclination.,,, a count of tailor catch reports might shed some light and prove or disprove some of the speculation/ conjecture that this debate always generates.

Mate the number of times Ive made the trip down the coast, fished good spots with the good bait and gear, and come home empty I could'nt count.

As well as that Im often on the beach without a rod because mum lives 100 metres from Mermaid beach,when ever I visit I make a point of walking early, and I rarely see any fish taken.
So the question I ask is this "If after a reasonable effort, I cant take a fish over a number of seasons at various locations,AND If I rarely see anyone else take a fish, but have seen netters take nets full of fish. Why is this So????

[straddie]

Re: Game Over

Chisel - The vast majority of the population is in SEQ and I didn't add in the much bigger NSW rec numbers which fish into the same east coast tailor population so I don't think the numbers are too bad. It is after all simply to demonstrate the impact a large group can have catching only a small number of fish each.


Slider - If I thought that tailor recruitment was being endangered by pros I would agree with your postion but I can't accept that they do in any other way than they have for 100 plus years, just in much smaller numbers than in the past.


Rando - The prefered rec tailor fishing periods of dawn, dusk and night would impact the number of fish seen to be caught, where as pros usually do pretty obvious day time shots. The way they fish is very different also with most people throwing in a line whether there are fish there or not, as against a pro (the good ones at least) who will only run a net because they know the fish are there. Mostly tailor are there or they aren't and when they are there they get smacked till they move on or there are none left, so the chances are you will see a lot or none caught depending on your timing.

Looking at my logs I fished 8 times throughout May and caught a minimum of 3 legal tailor (to 40cm plus) on each of seven trips in 4 different locations. I only took a single feed then went home on all but 1 trip and could probably have bagged out on at least half of those had I chosen to, so I can't say they have been hard to find.

[nigelr]

Re: Game Over

The Qld beach netters don't stop their work at the border.
I stand to be corrected, but I believe it is legal for them to work in NSW, ostensibly as crew for NSW licence holders.
On my river, it is illegal for them to operate, however they can and do operate legally adjacent to the confluence, ie at the rivermouth.
The last few years they have tended to shoot at night.
Mulloway bring much more money than mullet or blackfish.
In respect of your point Slider regarding mullet heading seawards rather than along the beach, over at least the past 5 years I have seen this for myself, this year a couple of small trawlers came down and though I have no direct evidence to support my claim, I believe targetted these schools as baitfish.
What the Pro fishers are doing is perfectly legal at present.
However, as a NSW Rec Fishing licence holder, I wonder how the monies spent from NSW rec fishing trusts, either to buy out Pro licencees, or to re-stock mulloway for example, can be justified when the pros can and do target these fish as they leave the river with the mullet each autumn.
These guys are pros, they have learned over generations every trick in the book and then some about the behaviour of their target species.
There operations are legal, and they have a right to persue their livelyhood.
They are active on several rivers in Nth. and Central NSW and I believe there was anecdotal evidence of them being active on the Hawkesbury last year, much to the chagrin of local amatuers.
It will take changes in the legislative framework for the status quo to be changed in any way, and that will take a sustained and comprehensive effort from many people, my sincere thanks to you Slider for your informative threads on this and related topics, which serve to educate and inspire many, IMHO.
As an incidental, we had a pro trapper living in the village here for a few years back in the late 80's early 90's.
He got sick of the poor money and hard work, and returned to his south coast NSW home and became a pro guide on his local river. One of his relatives did the same thing further south, albeit with a larger charter boat operation. These guys are both highly successful and highly respected, I wouldn't imagine they'de be missing their old lifestyle too much, as both are family men.
Cheers and thanks to all for a great thread.

[Slider]

Re: Game Over

Netters worked north from the River mouth today, hitting each decent gutter as they worked north. Don't know how many tonnes of mullet, but a fair few. Expect they'll be around D.I. tomorrow.

Just in time for the weekend.....

[rockfisho]

Re: Game Over

thats a shame slider.

I'm planning to fish the beach on the saturday mainly for tailor and jew. But I feel as though there won't be nearly as many around now the netters have cleaned the lot up. But hopefully some mullet do come in with the tailor following after them.

Is it like this every year? We haven't tended to fish that beach very often. But i recall last time we were up on fraser, we caught a great bag of tailor, and then later that night the netters swept through and ruined it for everyone. GRRRR

cheers

Owen

[Slider]

Re: Game Over

Yeah mate - every year. Started to really affect the fishing in winter I reckon from about the mid 80s.

Earlier in this thread I spoke about how the netters get around the area abandonment. Well it seems I gave these guys more credit than they are due. Yesterday they netted successfully south of Teewah which means that it would be futile to net south of Teewah for at least a week unless more mullet poured out the mouth. Well today they had 3 shots south of Teewah for not a single fish before heading up the top where they found the mullet. Several tonne gauging by what I saw being loaded on to the truck. Had a giggle to myself when I saw my old mate from Tewantin, shaking his head when the 2nd net came in empty.

So that should be all of Teewah Beach that is now affected by netting. Good luck on the weekend guys. The fresh could be of assistance tho and it may not be a total rightoff.

[Slider]

Re: Game Over

Thought I'd renew this post from last year to save me some writing for those that haven't read this stuff before.

Think there's a thread like this at this time each year for the last few.

And because the exact same scenario occurred yesterday as on May 22 last year and occurs every year at this time. And because I become just as angry each year that it does occur with nothing being done to solve the situation, I will continue to bring the matter to the publics' attention wherever possible. Beach seine netting on the Noosa North Shore, Fraser, Moreton and Stradbroke Islands and other areas of South East Qld is destroying beach angling and the repercussions to inshore fish stocks are apparent for all to see.

This year however, the shutdown of our beach angling by netting was one of the more interesting ones that I've experienced - I was in the middle of a good spinning sess on the tailor when the net was shot.

Things had been starting to look good for the last 2 weeks or so with the surf clearing following the latest rise in the Noosa and surf conditions calming. Gutters started to take shape with the calming sea and by Thursday last week it was time to hit it before the long weekend and the full moon.

I found 15 or 20 choppers on the thursday afternoon and another half a dozen early friday before heading to Brisbane to escape the traffic.

When I came home on monday to a beach loaded with traffic, there were schools of choppers chasing bait in several locations in the channel south of Teewah. So Tuesday morning at first light, I picked a gutter a couple of kms south of Teewah that I knew to have rock in it and have suitable shape and depth for the first light incoming tide. The gutter had plenty of choppers from 1 - 2kgs and I probably spun up around 30 before losing the slug to a cheating chopper - bitten off above the wire while playing a fish, by another tailor. The 55g Slider that replaced it seemed to turn the tailor on again and by 8 o'clock I'd had enough of choppers. Moving south towards the 3rd cutting, I spun a few other gutters with a couple of choppers coming from each. And on the return journey to Teewah found that choppers were still chewing in the first gutter.

Knowing that the pros were on the beach and were going to shoot the net somewhere at some time, I went back down after breakfast to see if I could find something decent on the run out.

More choppers were available and just before bottom of the tide a few better fish around 2.5kg made the effort worthwhile. The choppers chewed through the bottom of the tide and for about a half hour of the incoming which looked good for some greenbacks to return towards dusk. But at that point, everything totally shut down. My first reaction was that a net must have been shot as I knew that there were 6 pro boats north of Teewah with 8 - 10 vehicles in attendance and they were working out which was the biggest school to net - they had earlier watched a school in the gutter I was in for a half hour, but probably just to piss me off as much as anything. Then I noticed that schools of mullet which were previously just hanging in the gutters and surfing a few waves, were now all swimming south with some urgency. Also the longtails, dart and schools of tailor that had been feeding near offshore, had stopped feeding. I worked until near dusk, but didn't get another strike. Went down again this morning and didn't get a strike for an exhausting 2 hrs effort. Other people that had been getting tarwhine, tailor and dart yesterday morning found that they couldn't get anything today other than 1 flathead, 1 sole and a few very small dart. Not a single splash could be seen from the beach this morning with very flat conditions, where there had been multiple schools of feeding pelagics for several days before. The terns were in a searching pattern but not finding anything.

The shutdown occurred at around 3pm and I'm told that the pros shot the net at around 2.30, but they are both vague estimates. Irrespective, the timing was close. The net was shot about 6kms north of Teewah and I was spinning about 3 kms south of Teewah. It is safe to say that it took less than half an hour for a net 9 kms away to spook the fish and it is most likely that fish were being spooked 30 kms or more away from the net in a not much greater time.

The reason for this occurring is explained earlier in this thread in some detail. I've probably fine tuned aspects of this explanation a little since last year but it is correct as it stands.

But basically, what it means for beach anglers that fish where mullet netting occurs, is that you won't be getting many fish for a few months. Target flathead, or plan fishing trips to where the pros aren't is the only advice I can give.

I wasn't that thrilled this morning on being told that the pros' utes were that full, that fish were spilling out on the roundabouts of Tewantin last night.

Lindsay

[abbot_86]

Re: Game Over

mate i saw all the pros over there today and kicked myself i havnt got up the beach before they showed up. do you know if anything can be done to stop it ?. who would be the right people talk to??

[Crisp Bee]

Re: Game Over

Slider, That is sad to hear. We have strict bag limits placed on us as recreational fishers. Do you know if the "Cat Food Hunters" have similar limits?

[tinman42]

Re: Game Over

Great post, very informative read. Well worth renewing.

Slider, your knowledge simply blows a weekend fisho like me away. If a petition were to be started re the over-netting, I would be happy to put my name on it.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers

Bob

[plaztix]

Re: Game Over

Bugger, i'm heading up to DI next weekend. Same bloody thing happened last year. and i was glad i didn't go as the guys that did, said it was a shocker.

Glad to hear you got onto a few prior to the onslaught Slider.

How does it seem to affect offshore (snapper, reefies etc.) fishing?

[Freeeedom]

Re: Game Over

Thanks for the update Lindsay. I was up there on Tuesday - conditions were beautiful but I drove all the way to DI Point and didn't see any sign of pelagic activity on the whole beach. I tried a few holes looking for a tarwhine or a big dart on the way up but only managed one tarwhine up near DI. I stopped to pull a few worms around the bottom of the tide and then managed to spin up half a dozen choppers to about 1.5kg from a hole near the Cherry Venture site. On the way back down the beach the reason for the lack of fish suddenly became very obvious. I passed five different pro-boats and their associated crew cruising northwards along the beach looking for fish. I tried a couple more holes south of Teewah but never managed a single hit. Looks like another lean winter coming up
Cheers Freeeedom

[bugman]

Re: Game Over

Thanks for bringing this back again Lindsay.
I wonder if straddie will enter the debate again.

Having been privy for a few years to all the data coming out of DPI on tailor and was one of the first to see some of those graphs and tables you pointed to earlier I think I sit somewhere between you and Straddie. I don't think we can put the emphasis of stock degredation down to pro or rec but rather a combination of both. There absolutely no doubt that over fishing and lack of regulation allowed the tailor stocks to reduce to their current poor level. As pointed to earlier the majority of fish caught - some 80% are actually in their first year of live meaning two bad years of recruitment would see the stocks deplinish to unsustainable levels.

Having invested a lot of time on this fish both as an angler and as someone involved in regulation I think maybe we're looking at it from the wrong point of view. Having spent a bit of time working with the netters on Straddie I've seen them take shot after shot up and down the beach day after day and still take as many fish. The alarms or distress signals you mention - I haven't seen in action on those occassions. However even the pros will admit if they hit the beach hard for a week or so - then the tailor are hard to find but maybe that's just because they've all been caught

Anyway my arguement I was trying to get support for at the time was more of economic benefit. The numbers make sense when you pull them down and I haven't got them on hand at the moment but a vibrant - even infamous - rec tailor fishery based on Queensland's famous beaches would be worth a lot more to the Qld economy than that of a the dollars generated from the same stock caught under beach netting. However the argument isn't as simple as that because you need to take into account the extra pressue placed on the beach environment itself from extra cars - people etc. The costs asociated with say a 10 fold increase in beach traffic is quite something to behold once the numbers are done. Lindsay you're more aware than most of us with such things as the licence and permit system for up your way now. As a result - anyone doing numbers of economic benefit can't simply take one from the other as flow on costs of a rec only industry also increase.

Anyway it's a long and complicated arguement which noone is really set to take by the scruff of the neck. The only thing that is common knowledge is that tailor stocks are low and we all need to do something about it. Both rec and pro.

On another note - I'm going tailor fishing on the NSW north coast next week. I'm taking my dad and I'm hoping we catch a couple.

Brett

[Stroadman]

Re: Game Over

Flogging a dead horse isn't it????

This subject comes up every year, winter time. Petitions have been done, governments and their agencies have been approached, councils have been approached, sitting members have been approached, where has it got us?????
Absolutely nowhere!!!
It's a bloody disgrace that this continues to happen in this day and age with aquaculture etc, etc.

You know when they'll stop netting???????????...........................when the pro's can't make a living out of it, then they'll dissappear, one by one.
Like mongrel dogs scavenging bones, they'll keep at it 'til there aint none left!

Like I said, Flogging a dead horse!!

Heretic.

[Slider]

Re: Game Over

I'm told by several sources that Tuesdays' haul was 30 tonne. Which I hear caused some dramas - the Markwells truck wasn't available and the fish had to be carted across the ferry in the pro's utes. They couldn't access any ice and it took something like 8hrs for them to get all the mullet to the co-op. Explains the many dead fish lying around Tewantin.

Brett, there is no question that the amateur take of tailor contributes significantly to the current low population levels. And I would like to see the bag limit reduced further and the size limit to 40cm. However, it is not necessarily the extraction of fish on its own that causes population collapse. We believe that behavioral changes in commercially targeted species in recent years, causing alterations to migratory and spawning habits is affecting recruitment dramatically. This combined with the extraction of fish that are most abundant when they are spawning is quite likely tipping the balance to the point where populations fall.
I expect the banning of tailor netting in NSW and the creation of Fishing Havens like the Clarence and Richmond Rvrs has helped recruitment in this area enormously. I think it is bizarre that these benefits are quickly eroded when the tailor cross the border into Qld waters though.

I now have some pretty clued up scientists from France, the U.S. and Mexico that specialise in this field, that are adamant that this is occurring around the world. Patrice Brehmer (Paris), tells me that my observations nearly match his and his colleagues observations nearly precisely after 10 years researching just this. Patrice has asked to collaborate on proving the theory and further research could be conducted in this region later this year by these gentlemen.

How long ago Brett was it that you saw the netting at Straddie you're referring to? This could be relevent and other factors such as haul size, fish age, spawning scenario and a heavy bait presence can reverse area abandonment in some situations - such as the method used by the Chinese targeting yellowfin tuna in the Solomons. I'm pretty sure that it is common knowledge among professional net fishermen that netting the same location these days on repeated days is futile - certainly every one that I've spoken to.

You've probably seen the study commissioned by the Queensland government into the value of the rec tailor fishing industry compared to the commercial value in the same regions - I haven't got it on hand either. But based on that study, one wonders why there has been such reluctance to address this issue.

Plaztix, good question and a hard one to answer in brief. We believe that any species that is currently targeted with nets, or has a recent history of being targeted with nets (within say 2 generations), would react to alarm signals by any other species that is trapped in a net - within hearing distance or secondary transmission distance. There are variables here also - haul size, fish age, time of year and type of netting - beach or ocean. Snapper aren't ever caught in beach seine nets, so I would doubt that this type of netting would spook snapper. Are snapper netted at all? - I couldn't establish that fact with a quick search in DPI.

Mackerel are an interesting species in this regard. The ring netting of mackerel was banned in (I'm guessing) 2003. And I have seen mackerel spooked by beach seine nets on a number of occasions - the last time was probably 4 or 5 years ago when mullet were being netted while spotties and schoolies were surface feeding close offshore. On Tuesday, they definitely seemed to spook with the nets again and I was wondering if, at some point, they'd lose their fear of nets. Well yesterday I picked up 4 or 5 schoolies off the beach and a small longtail (5 - 6kgs)and today the schoolies were in better numbers and I spun up a couple of mac tuna that were feeding well within casting range at the 3rd cut also. I did find 2 very small choppers amongst the mackerel.

So it may be that mackerel are now losing their fear of nets, but this may be confined to younger fish. Or, the amount of bait has played a role in reversing area abandonment and potentially it can be a combination of both those factors. Another successful haul of mullet could shut the mackerel down then - it remains to be seen on this score.

Crisp Bee, there are quotas on each of the targeted species. The question is whether these quotas are suitable for current and future stock levels. Based on the information that Fisheries have at hand, I would suggest that these levels would be fine unless what I'm saying about migrations and spawning alterations is correct.

Freeeedom, most of the surface feeding has been confined to the reef areas from the 3rd cut to half way to Teewah. The tailor have been congregating in one gutter only along this stretch - a gutter I had to myself for a while but a couple of trusted local friends have betrayed my trust.

I often feel I'm flogging a dead horse Stroadman, but I wouldn't sleep at night if I didn't try.
Last year I raised the prospect of revenue from vehicle permits in Cooloola being used to fund the buy back of licenses on the North Shore. The Minister's office eventually informed me that this revenue can only be used for 'terrestrial' infrastructure and I thought of burying the horse at that point. However, a phone call on Tuesday that originated from a Government source, indicated that this may not be the case at all and that the 'source' suggested that I continue the campaign.
The reality is of course, that the buy back of commercial fishing licenses isn't a cheap exercise and there aren't too many millions floating around the state coffers atm. There are seventeen K8 licenses that apply to Cooloola region alone. Therefore the funds for such a buy back will have to be derived from another source. I firmly believe that a salt water license would work well in Qld as it has elsewhere. But I am aware that there are good arguments against a licensing system and that such funds are already being taken from rec fishermen through taxes and boat regos. I therefore wouldn't personally be willing to push for saltwater licenses in Qld although they may help my cause.
So the vehicle permit revenue looks to be a worthwhile target and we are currently getting organised to pursue this with the new Minister. Any supporting emails from the general public can only be of assistance and can be sent to the Minister for Environment and Resource Management - Kate Jones - ccs@ministerial.qld.gov.au
- send me a pm or email - ldines@bigpond.net.au if any info required.

The downside with this is, that Moreton and Stradbroke and other areas would be unlikely to see any downgrade in netting pressure. However, Fraser Island would benefit, as the buy back of K8 licenses would force the individual who holds the Fraser license in to retirement.

Lindsay