GPS PLOTTER and Green Zone rubbish!

[Scott nthQld]

I believe that a few people have already contested there fines and won on the grounds that the green zones are not clearly defined eg. bouys marking the boundarys. After all as has already been pointed out chart plotters are not compolsory. It seems to me that the goverrnment will a. have to bouy all the green zones or b. make the use of chart plotters compolsory.

As usual we have problems from rushed and poorly thought out legislation, what do we pay our leaders for??

No fines have been overturned, only criminal convictions. Somehow the EPA was able to get the legislation passed whereby anyone caught fishing in a green zone would have a criminal conviction against their name for the rest of their lives. Since then this part of the legislation has been eliminated and those convicted had their's quashed. Though it still shows up on your record that you were convicted and had it quashed later. But you are correct on the reasoning, they were quashed because the zones are not clearly defined.

For those in the SE, welcome to the era of green zones, GBR anglers have had to deal with the repercussions of the EPA for sometime now, and we've just gotten used to it, often putting mre pressure on other areas by rec fisho's trading marks because some of theirs were now inside the zoned areas, and now that labor has control of both federal and State government, it won't be changing anytime soon.

And trueblue, even though simple navigation is part of the general safety obligation, even the best navigators in the world couldn't tell you exactly where you are, especially when there are no landmarks to take a bearing off. Even an electronic GPS is not 100 percent accurate, and most will only give you your position within 5m at best, so even if your favourite fishing spot is just outside the green zone and your GPS says you're right on top of it, you can still be in the green zone due to the impossiblity of any device to measure and find your exact location (the greatest mathmatical minds in the world agree that any meaurement is only accurate to within 1/2 of the last digit, eg a measurement of 1.2km means it could be 1.15-1.25km, so therefore the more decimals you use, the more accurate the measurement is, but it will never be 100% correct). yet another reason why the Green zone convictions were quashed.

[nowornever]

all the knockers above need to pull your heads in...

people who can't navigate don't belong on the water at all. Navigation is part of your general safety obligation.

If you can't work out if you are in a green zone or not, you sure as sh!t are not capable of being safe out on the water.

regards

Mick



With reference to the comment above, very lame mate! I am asking because I dont want to spend half MY TIME CHECKING IF I AM OR I AM NOT IN A GREEN ZONE.

Really a COMMON SENSE QUESTION FOR ANYONE HERE.

[Scott nthQld]

all the knockers above need to pull your heads in...

people who can't navigate don't belong on the water at all. Navigation is part of your general safety obligation.

If you can't work out if you are in a green zone or not, you sure as sh!t are not capable of being safe out on the water.

regards

Mick



With reference to the comment above, very lame mate! I am asking because I dont want to spend half MY TIME CHECKING IF I AM OR I AM NOT IN A GREEN ZONE.

Really a COMMON SENSE QUESTION FOR ANYONE HERE.

The point I am trying to make is there is no way anyone or anything (short of a satellite photograph) can tell the exact point you have crossed into a green zone. If you can tell me, with no aid of any electronic devices and no visible land, exactly where you are at any given time then I take my hat off to you and you are probably in the wrong line of work. Many people have been caught fishing what they thought was the border of a green zone, still thinking they are outside the imaginary "boundary" when they have been caught, and fined for being only a few metres inside, even with the aid of the GPS plotter, they still got it wrong.
But yes I agree, if you can't navigate, then you shouldn't be on the water. Things can go wrong and currents and wind can push you out to sea and if you don't know an approximate location, how an you be rescued? but I stress, any form of navigation will only result in an approximate location, even a GPS (though this will be a lot more accurate than any manual methods).

[honda900]

this has some info

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/arc...p/t-53532.html

Some questions entered my head when I read it the first time.

How will a court be able to hold someone responsible for crossing a green zone if;

1) The accuracy of the GPS systems can be changed at any time by certain military powers.

2) not all units are the same, some are more accurate than others.

3) if the boundaries to the green areas are based solely on GPS coordinates how will this be validated?

4) and what if the "Law" is unable to corroborate the exact gps marks?

[Scott nthQld]

Exactly the questions that were raised when zoning hit the GBR but the laws remained intact, except for the criminal offence part.

what gets me the most is the free maps they provide (which can be picked up in any tackle store). These maps are supposed to show where the zoning begins and ends, but it is clearly stated that they are NOT to scale and shouldn't be used for navigation, so how can the once a year fisho reasonably accurately determine where they can and can't fish, when its obviously not worth spending up on a GPS with the green zone card upgrade? (now we're getting back on topic) If the EPA want to enforce these laws then it is reasonable to expect that they should provide at least free, accurate marine charts mapping these zones (those on the water should know how to navigate for reasons mentioned previously). Until they do so, it is the belief of many (including me) that they cannot expect the average fisho to know where these 'borders' start and finish.

more often than not, when the officials who patrol and enforce this zoning (don't know who, never had any contact with them) catch someone fishing inside the green zone, it is their word against the fisho's, and if they get pinched juuust inside the border, the fisho'd GPS often says one thing (that they are outside the zone) and the officials say another, so who is at fault here? The fisho, even though they have a device displaying they are OK to fish or the officials who have a similar device that reads the other way? As Marine Safety Qld says, electronic devices do not satisfy the safety obligation for navigation, but fines are being issued based on information from these devices, where does it stop? We can't rely on a GPS for navigation in open waters, we must have a compass and charts but they can use a GPS to prosecute.

[hungry6]

Honda900 made a very good point. Recently a case right here in QLD was dismissed because of one single factor. "discrepancy" between makes of GPS.
The case was about a local farmer mowing down some "Not of Concern" vegetation for infrastructure and the DNR and water came out with their Garmin72 and plotted the area, which was a fraction over 4 Ha.
On hearing the Defendant presented an "expert witness" in the field of GPS and the words were " 2 different makes of GPS can NEVER give the same reading."
Unless it was written into legislation of which brand and model should be used for the exact purpose. Even then the instruments used should be calibrated in accordance with NATA guidelines. Which never happens
The short of what I wrote is the legislation I have yet to see, but base on the GBR ones, the holes are that bloody big that you can drive a truck through it, It might cost $$$ to defend yourself.
So I'll think they will use the "grievance" factor and issue a small fine which is big enough to hurt your pocket, but too small to take it to court......

As for anyone who claims everyone should be skill navigator has got their heads in the clouds. How do you triangulate a bunch of Is. when your not a local "visiting tourist" and most of the is. in the southern bay looks pretty much the same in the dark to me.

[garman1]

Mick you have not taken my point in the context I meant it. Mapping courses are an excellent idea and one I have brought up with a couple of people already.

But, what I meant was that the people who decide the areas of the green zones,..... if THEY, just went for a fish with the kids in a smallish size tinnie, on sunday arvo lets say. They don't go out often so they havn't bought gps's etc, are they going to triangulate their position everytime they drift along having a bit of family fun with kids.......... I doubt it. But they may well find themselves being fined for being in a green zone.

But they may well be still a safe and skilled boatie.

My point is that transferring it from paper to reality on the water will be hard to do, and bouys maybe an easy answer ??? Not everyone has the skills, time for the odd fishing trip to go thrue..........

Gaz

We work 5 days to enjoy 2, with kids and fishing. Have a good one..................

[polky]

Fellas get used to the green zones they are here to stay. My mates and I went to meeting after meeting,mentioned areas we fished, others mentioned popular fishing spots when the final map came out these spots were green zoned. They gathered our info and then used it to green zone areas. We have been green zoned around Gladstone for years, you simply get used to it. Or you get spanked. Some advice if you do not have a GPS system stay well clear of green areas, if you do have GPS fish 1.5/2 nm from green area. If you get caught speeding the officer dosn,t give a shit if your speedo is not working,he clocked you speeding you will wear the fine, same with the fishos, it,s not his concern whether you have a GPS or not his concern is you are illeagley fishing in a green zone. It is the fisher persons duty to make sure they are NOT in the green zone. Fellas don,t get me wrong these zones piss me to tears, and most other boaties up here, but it,s law. We have lost a lot of productive fishing ground up here, smaller boats are going wider to catch fish sometimes out to far. When we drift fish we are always checking our Gps in relation to the green zones. Lets hope you fellas and ladys don,t loosa to much good ground. Polky.

[oldboot]

As far as the accuracy of navigation.
If you consider most reasonably priced marine compases are marked to 5 deg and are accurate to 2 deg. nice compses are marked to 1 deg....

I know from woodworking a 1 deg error over an 8 foot sheet of ply is quite a reasonable error.

how about a 2 degree error ( assuming perfect sighting and a sharp reference) is quite some distance over say 5km.

Yess this boundries of zones is an issue.

I believe the government can be sufficiently bloody minded to make it legaly your problem and them selves to be the judge of fact.

This is an issue that needs to be raised with your local member and so forth.

then there are issues about defining zones by things that move, such as the high or low water mark, or by a depth contour.
Those are dynamic and coud not be reliably mapped.

fishing close to the zones, I don't think will be a clever thing to do.

Oh my goodness gracious me yess, if we open this bag of worms better spread lots of news paper or you'll get your foot on the sticky paper. dont you worry about that.

cheers

[bondy99]

trueblue,

Does your vessel comly with the USL Codes? Also do you have AUS charts on board that you constantly update and check every 10 to 15 mins on your journey?

I'll tell you know, if shit hits the fan and you go to court, you need to prove to the court that you took all reasonable steps and one of those is having a paperchart. It's been tested and upheld in all jurisdictions. Ignorance is no excuse.

Authorities are required under a duty of care and through NTM to state clearly on charts as to where changes have been made.

[hodges4]

To my way of thinking if you are not 100% sure you are not in a green zone then don't fish there.
If you dont have an accurate GPS then stay away, if you don't even have an accurate map of the zone then stay well away.
It seems like a lot of people are trying to find a way of pushing the limits and fish as close as possible to the boundary and then blame someone/something else if they stray over the line. Just looking for trouble.
Give yourself plenty of room and it won't become a problem. It's up to you to know where you are.

[tidemaster]

this has some info

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/arc...p/t-53532.html

Some questions entered my head when I read it the first time.

How will a court be able to hold someone responsible for crossing a green zone if;

1) The accuracy of the GPS systems can be changed at any time by certain military powers.

2) not all units are the same, some are more accurate than others.

3) if the boundaries to the green areas are based solely on GPS coordinates how will this be validated?

4) and what if the "Law" is unable to corroborate the exact gps marks?

Dont get me wrong, I feel everyones pain about this. BUT.

While a GPS unit may not be able to accurately position you, the reality of it is that you can plot GPS Positions accurately on a chart, and mark out exactly where the boundaries are. When you turn most GPS on, or on the printed material that came with the mapping, you will see disclaimers that state the maps should be used as a guide only. So I really dont think the accuracy of GPS is a valid point in this whole argument.

I know for certain that when the new zones come in I will be marking all the zones on my chart, and taking note of the landmarks along a dead reakoned line and making notes in my fishing diary I keep on the boat. So that when I am around these areas I can refresh my memory about where the zones start and finish. If In doubt, I wont fish that close to the invisible line.

Unfortunately as much as I hate the new zones (and all the political bullshiat behind them) they are coming and they will be enforced. Rather than trying to find ways to get out of being fined, I personally, will be finding ways to keep away from the zones. It really isnt that hard to plot the zones on a chart, make some notes on the boundaries and just stay away from them. If you fish VERY close to these zones, I guess you will run the gauntlet of being caught.

Outside is obviously much harder to find landmarks etc to work from. many of my marks outside look like they will be affected by the green zones. Many marks are very close to the proposed boundaries. What am I doing about this?????? Deleting the marks inside the zones and close to the boundaries and looking for new ground!!!!!

Unfortunately no matter how screwed up the law is the law and if you get caught breaking it you will be punished. The only way not be punished is not to break the law, no matter how grey the law is.

[seatime]

There may be some positives that come out of the MBMP rezoning after all, if nothing else, fishers will be required to brush up on their navigation skills!

I don't fancy the idea of buoys marking the zone boundaries however, they have enough trouble keeping the lighted beacons working now without adding more navigation hazards to the bay. Plus they are impractical to use in the offshore zones.

The most pertinent point has already been made by previous posters, and I agree wholeheartedly - stay well away from the zone boundaries if you're not confident of your positioning and there's a possibility you could stray into a no-fishing zone.
No-one likes to be made an example of by some Green zealot with the power to issue infringement notices.

[bondy99]

Dont get me wrong, I feel everyones pain about this. BUT.

While a GPS unit may not be able to accurately position you, the reality of it is that you can plot GPS Positions accurately on a chart, and mark out exactly where the boundaries are. When you turn most GPS on, or on the printed material that came with the mapping, you will see disclaimers that state the maps should be used as a guide only. So I really dont think the accuracy of GPS is a valid point in this whole argument.

I know for certain that when the new zones come in I will be marking all the zones on my chart, and taking note of the landmarks along a dead reakoned line and making notes in my fishing diary I keep on the boat. So that when I am around these areas I can refresh my memory about where the zones start and finish. If In doubt, I wont fish that close to the invisible line.

Unfortunately as much as I hate the new zones (and all the political bullshiat behind them) they are coming and they will be enforced. Rather than trying to find ways to get out of being fined, I personally, will be finding ways to keep away from the zones. It really isnt that hard to plot the zones on a chart, make some notes on the boundaries and just stay away from them. If you fish VERY close to these zones, I guess you will run the gauntlet of being caught.

Outside is obviously much harder to find landmarks etc to work from. many of my marks outside look like they will be affected by the green zones. Many marks are very close to the proposed boundaries. What am I doing about this?????? Deleting the marks inside the zones and close to the boundaries and looking for new ground!!!!!

Unfortunately no matter how screwed up the law is the law and if you get caught breaking it you will be punished. The only way not be punished is not to break the law, no matter how grey the law is.

Mate, I'm not specifically talking about the green zones, I'm talking generally and specifically if your planning a voyage from A to B. It has nothing to do with green zones. Many a person has come undone. NTM are called Notices to Mariners. Then again not many amateurs would know this. Any competent Master will have manual backups, if your electronics screw up then you would rely on an AUS chart, hence the need to back up your fixes, and do some dead reckoning. Just relying upon GPS as a sole navigation is flawed

[ozbee]

there is always a interim period when new legislation is brought in and you will be warned as in nq , usually about 12 months. in this time the green zones will be up dated on your chart plotters maps so a simple map update is required, for those who have small boats and no chart plotter are usually fishing around headlands zone marks are distinct landmarks like bay to bay point etc. i am no great lover of green zones but i must admit as time goes on my fish catches have returned to what i was catching before(took a bit of searching) but a increase in size has become the norm.