Are we knuckle-dragging, bottom dwelling predators?

[Poodroo]

Has been a very interesting thread that's for sure. For some reason I have this yearning for sour krauts.

Poodroo

[lefty-green]

Now the yuppy fringe sect on the other hand, are a force to be reckoned with, and should not be dismissed easily. In most of the cases, they live on waterfront, or acreage (provided for by daddy) and have gardening services looking after their yard.

At sometime in their lives they have been attracted to a "lunatic fringe" at their UNI, merely because everything for them, has fell into place so easily (via daddy), that they are bored out of their skulls and need to focus their energies somewhere else.

They're spoilt, they're class conscious, they're bored, they're misguided
kev

Here's what you said Kev - I dont think I missed the point at all, mate. But you tried backpedalling your way out of what you said!

Your statement, "This generation of 18-25 y.o. are fully aware of the environmental problems the world faces" is irrelevant. Just because they are fully aware, doesn't mean that they would act on it, and certainly doesn't exclude them from joining any "lunatic fringe" if they did want to act on it. In fact, I would put it to you, (and this may sound like another generalisation), that it is precisely because of their youth and inexperience, that they are more likely to join a "fringe group" than are the older generation. Youth, with their "need to belong", their dissilusionment with their lot, their juvenile attitude that they can put the world to rights, their often voiced resentment of their elders, and in particular, this current generation with their total disregard for authority, make easy pickings for those who wish to turn them into "subversives". I bet you can count on one hand the number of suicide bombers and folk hanging from trees, over the age of 25.

As for this drivel, Kev, you're showing your age here. Are you saying no-one from your generation disregarded authority? Dear-oh-dear, Kev, I'd suggest your generation started the anti-establishment movement - Woodstock, drugs, etc, - my point is that "this current generation" are alot more aware about environmentalism, etc. and you really have no idea about who you're against. Rich kids? Pfft. Young people with an education and an idea about environmental consciousness and how to do something about the things that are detrimental to the environment. They have had these ideals instilled into them from a young age. Recycling, saving water, fuel efficiency, etc all part of life now - not when you and I were 20! As I have said before, young people have a much greener outlook than our generation and your assumption that these people are rich and bored and class-conscious is utter crap!

As I said, forget the tree huggers, they are simply the misguided foot soldiers just as are the suicide bombers.................dangerous nevertheless but not the real problem. The real problem is their "masters" who manipulate them into "voicing" their dissillusionment via actions that are undemocratic and anti-social. Their masters seek power through manipulation, subterfuge, and mobilisation of the foot soldiers and they obtain far more power and attention than their minority representation warrants. That's the way it has always been with the leaders of minority Parties, be it Franco's Fascists, Hitler's Nazis, or the Greens. If you can't get power via the ballot box, pursue your agenda some other way.........bigger fools the established democratic authority for allowing them that representation via bodies such as the EPA

As for this rant - well I wont comment too much. However, this 'new' wave of environmentalism has affected the way people vote! Votes change legislation - its as simple as that. Thats why there's a review of the MBMP. Prefences - the new environmentalists have given enough votes to Green candidates to make their prefences so much more important. Undemocratic you say - this is the essence of the word for goodness sake - its how democracy works!

Masters, manipulation, subterfuge, mobilisation - you profess to knowing how these 'young' people think - voicing" their dissillusionment via actions that are undemocratic and anti-social ??? MOST of these people aren't puppets, they are smart, educated people making their own choices.

Anyway this has gotten a little off-track. It doesn't seem that we will reach agreement. No-one seems to agree with what I'm saying and thats fine. I'll still continue to read posts in these forums with interest.

I dont see myself as arrogant or naive Brew_guru, and you're right about Katherine Gorge, etc, and increased green house gases and higher temperatures may well have occurred in the past - the point is change is occuring at a far greater rate thanks to us.

And Pinhead Coral bleaching - google that and see what pops up! But then again you wont believe anything bad is happening will you? Everything's great to you. Mate, thats disillusionment of the highest order.

[Jackinthebox]

Lefty,

I agree with Kev on this last quote.
Youth, with their "need to belong", their dissilusionment with their lot, their juvenile attitude that they can put the world to rights, their often voiced resentment of their elders, and in particular, this current generation with their total disregard for authority, make easy pickings for those who wish to turn them into "subversives"

While this current rebellious generation Y may be similar in many ways to previous generations in their youth, you are forgetting that most kids these days spend bugger all time in the outdoors and know very little about the natural world around them. About the only kids that know anything about the marine environment are kids that go fishing.

You talk about a democracy? Here we have a minority of the population conning the majority of the population into forcing ridiculous restrictions concerning something they know nothing about on the most important user group(fishermen) who are about the only ones with knowledge and decades of experience out in this "resource" we call Moreton Bay.

Playstation, Youtube, Myspace, etc, etc - that's where most of them get their info from and it is very easy to be fed a whole lot of crap by animal libbers & tree huggers because most of them don't have any real experience in the natural world and they can't see the bullsh*&t for the trees.

[Jackinthebox]

BTW lefty,

most of the young kids i know who fish are about the most environmentally caring & aware youngsters/teenagers i've ever seen when it comes to the health of our waterways, compared to their non-fishing counterparts who couldn't give a stuff!

Until someone makes it cool & the "in" thing to do.

[PinHead]

Here's what you said Kev - I dont think I missed the point at all, mate. But you tried backpedalling your way out of what you said!

Your statement, "This generation of 18-25 y.o. are fully aware of the environmental problems the world faces" is irrelevant. Just because they are fully aware, doesn't mean that they would act on it, and certainly doesn't exclude them from joining any "lunatic fringe" if they did want to act on it. In fact, I would put it to you, (and this may sound like another generalisation), that it is precisely because of their youth and inexperience, that they are more likely to join a "fringe group" than are the older generation. Youth, with their "need to belong", their dissilusionment with their lot, their juvenile attitude that they can put the world to rights, their often voiced resentment of their elders, and in particular, this current generation with their total disregard for authority, make easy pickings for those who wish to turn them into "subversives". I bet you can count on one hand the number of suicide bombers and folk hanging from trees, over the age of 25.

As for this drivel, Kev, you're showing your age here. Are you saying no-one from your generation disregarded authority? Dear-oh-dear, Kev, I'd suggest your generation started the anti-establishment movement - Woodstock, drugs, etc, - my point is that "this current generation" are alot more aware about environmentalism, etc. and you really have no idea about who you're against. Rich kids? Pfft. Young people with an education and an idea about environmental consciousness and how to do something about the things that are detrimental to the environment. They have had these ideals instilled into them from a young age. Recycling, saving water, fuel efficiency, etc all part of life now - not when you and I were 20! As I have said before, young people have a much greener outlook than our generation and your assumption that these people are rich and bored and class-conscious is utter crap!

As I said, forget the tree huggers, they are simply the misguided foot soldiers just as are the suicide bombers.................dangerous nevertheless but not the real problem. The real problem is their "masters" who manipulate them into "voicing" their dissillusionment via actions that are undemocratic and anti-social. Their masters seek power through manipulation, subterfuge, and mobilisation of the foot soldiers and they obtain far more power and attention than their minority representation warrants. That's the way it has always been with the leaders of minority Parties, be it Franco's Fascists, Hitler's Nazis, or the Greens. If you can't get power via the ballot box, pursue your agenda some other way.........bigger fools the established democratic authority for allowing them that representation via bodies such as the EPA

As for this rant - well I wont comment too much. However, this 'new' wave of environmentalism has affected the way people vote! Votes change legislation - its as simple as that. Thats why there's a review of the MBMP. Prefences - the new environmentalists have given enough votes to Green candidates to make their prefences so much more important. Undemocratic you say - this is the essence of the word for goodness sake - its how democracy works!

Masters, manipulation, subterfuge, mobilisation - you profess to knowing how these 'young' people think - voicing" their dissillusionment via actions that are undemocratic and anti-social ??? MOST of these people aren't puppets, they are smart, educated people making their own choices.

Anyway this has gotten a little off-track. It doesn't seem that we will reach agreement. No-one seems to agree with what I'm saying and thats fine. I'll still continue to read posts in these forums with interest.

I dont see myself as arrogant or naive Brew_guru, and you're right about Katherine Gorge, etc, and increased green house gases and higher temperatures may well have occurred in the past - the point is change is occuring at a far greater rate thanks to us.

And Pinhead Coral bleaching - google that and see what pops up! But then again you wont believe anything bad is happening will you? Everything's great to you. Mate, thats disillusionment of the highest order.

yeah right..and everything on the internet is absolute fact..get real. goggle something and then sort the wheat from the chaff..very little wheat on a lot of it. Typical of a greenie..you believe what is thrown at you..did you perhaps think the coral bleaching is from a natural warming of the planet (if it is even occurring) and not man made..but no..just believe what they want you to believe.

As fpr the youth today..I come in contact with a lot of them..mainly working class blokes..tradies, apprentices, some young professionals..and the resounding thoughts from them prior to the last election was not..who is the greenest candidate or who has the best workplace situations..the responses mainly were...who gives a rats..is the pub open yet..they are just like I was at that age..just want to enjoy themselves.

and you obviously cannot see past what the media is telling you..sounds just like the song..."believing all the lies that they're telling ya, buying all the products that they're selling ya...."

and lefty..life ia absolutely bloody marvellous..I wake up every day and go..you bewdy..made it through another one..just wondering how many dopes will be in my path of life today..it is so good to be alive.

[BrewGuru]

dont see myself as arrogant or naive Brew_guru, and you're right about Katherine Gorge, etc, and increased green house gases and higher temperatures may well have occurred in the past - the point is change is occuring at a far greater rate thanks to us.

Thank you old learned one, you have aknowledged my arrogance but naivety? in regard to climate change? (psst its already been and gone and back again) Lefty you seem to be a university trained expert overqualified in some doctrate that has given you no income or life and now you are dirty on the world, I hope you get over your knowledge and use it for good and not evil

[kingtin]

Here's what you said Kev - I dont think I missed the point at all, mate. But you tried backpedalling your way out of what you said!

Your statement, "This generation of 18-25 y.o. are fully aware of the environmental problems the world faces" is irrelevant. Just because they are fully aware, doesn't mean that they would act on it, and certainly doesn't exclude them from joining any "lunatic fringe" if they did want to act on it. In fact, I would put it to you, (and this may sound like another generalisation), that it is precisely because of their youth and inexperience, that they are more likely to join a "fringe group" than are the older generation. Youth, with their "need to belong", their dissilusionment with their lot, their juvenile attitude that they can put the world to rights, their often voiced resentment of their elders, and in particular, this current generation with their total disregard for authority, make easy pickings for those who wish to turn them into "subversives". I bet you can count on one hand the number of suicide bombers and folk hanging from trees, over the age of 25.

As for this drivel, Kev, you're showing your age here. Are you saying no-one from your generation disregarded authority? Dear-oh-dear, Kev, I'd suggest your generation started the anti-establishment movement - Woodstock, drugs, etc, - my point is that "this current generation" are alot more aware about environmentalism, etc. and you really have no idea about who you're against. Rich kids? Pfft. Young people with an education and an idea about environmental consciousness and how to do something about the things that are detrimental to the environment. They have had these ideals instilled into them from a young age. Recycling, saving water, fuel efficiency, etc all part of life now - not when you and I were 20! As I have said before, young people have a much greener outlook than our generation and your assumption that these people are rich and bored and class-conscious is utter crap!

As I said, forget the tree huggers, they are simply the misguided foot soldiers just as are the suicide bombers.................dangerous nevertheless but not the real problem. The real problem is their "masters" who manipulate them into "voicing" their dissillusionment via actions that are undemocratic and anti-social. Their masters seek power through manipulation, subterfuge, and mobilisation of the foot soldiers and they obtain far more power and attention than their minority representation warrants. That's the way it has always been with the leaders of minority Parties, be it Franco's Fascists, Hitler's Nazis, or the Greens. If you can't get power via the ballot box, pursue your agenda some other way.........bigger fools the established democratic authority for allowing them that representation via bodies such as the EPA

As for this rant - well I wont comment too much. However, this 'new' wave of environmentalism has affected the way people vote! Votes change legislation - its as simple as that. Thats why there's a review of the MBMP. Prefences - the new environmentalists have given enough votes to Green candidates to make their prefences so much more important. Undemocratic you say - this is the essence of the word for goodness sake - its how democracy works!

Masters, manipulation, subterfuge, mobilisation - you profess to knowing how these 'young' people think - voicing" their dissillusionment via actions that are undemocratic and anti-social ??? MOST of these people aren't puppets, they are smart, educated people making their own choices.

Lefty, Lefty Lefty, I despair If your attitude and debate here is how environmentalists pursue their cause, then all is lost. Just illustrate where I am backpedalling?

You said, "To brand environmentalists as yuppies is just plain naive and I'm sure when you re-read your post, you will realise that it was dismissive and pretentious."

I said, "I didn't class all environmentalists as yuppies, in fact, I mentioned two "stereotypes" and nowhere did I say that these were the only types. I said:

"The ones that you can't reasonably discuss with, are either those dole bludging tree huggers who have never done a days work in their life.................pardon me............correction..........professional students, or else they're the "yuppy" fringe sect."

Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't my statement above pretty clear? Nowhere do I say that all environmentalists are yuppies and nowhere do I say that all yuppies are part of the lunatic fringe sect. I simply say that the ones that you can't reason with belong to one or another sect.

Again, you personalise the issue by saying, "As for this drivel, Kev, you're showing your age here. Are you saying no-one from your generation disregarded authority?"

Just why is my argument "drivel" and yours so high and bloody mighty? Why is my debating indicative of my age? I put it to you that your above statement infers that all folk of my age are intolerant of youth. I also put it to you that "showing my age" could carry some weight with most folk, as with age, comes experience. Also, why ask if I'm saying that no-one from my generation disregarded authority, when it is plain for all to see that I didn't say that? Diversionary tactics or just plain smear?

you said; " Masters, manipulation, subterfuge, mobilisation - you profess to knowing how these 'young' people think - voicing" their dissillusionment via actions that are undemocratic and anti-social ??? MOST of these people aren't puppets, they are smart, educated people making their own choices"

I've worked with youth for over 30 yrs, both via the military and the education system and latterly via Child Safety. My opinion, and I will make this clear, is that generally, not absolutely, youth is more dismissive of authority than in the past. They are also more likely to oppose those they disagree with even if that opposition is anti-social or illegal. They are quite simply more likely to pursue their own agendas with total disregard for others, than were previous generations. They have become empowered, but unfortunately, they have not got the experience of life, to use that power wisely. They are more materialistic and angrier, which is why those who seek power can mobilise their anger. When someone is angry, they seek to "lash out" and vent that anger. This is not psychobabble but well documented, and even if it wasn't, many parents here can no doubt identify with what I am saying. As for them being "smart and well educated"? Again, it is well documented that this just isn't the case. I don't blame the kids, in fact I pity them. It is society and family who have failed them. Values and standards have been eroded and the consequences are plain to see so please don't make sweeping statements inferring that they can think for themselves and arrive at an educated decision, because the vast majority can't, (in comparison to previous generations). They prefer to let others think and act for them and most are prone to being led (manipulated), and are not motivated or skilled enough, to be leaders. It even takes 'em longer to leave home nowadays and that has nothing to do with circumstance and more to do with them being less independent and more mercenary. I will re-iterate that my statements are a generalisation aimed at youth as a whole, and that I agree that there are exceptions.

your, "MOST of these people aren't puppets, they are smart, educated people making their own choices" smacks of the sanctimonious attitude that members of some groups (be it Green or whatever) display..........placing themselves on a pedestal high above us sinners. Green groups in particular seem to think that they have the monopoly on conservation, and lesser mortals such as the general public should wake up and listen to their preachings. They seem to think that they're the only ones conversant with the issues which is probably why you're preaching here. I've got news for you mate, rec fishers/hunters and the like have been practicing conservation long before some snotty nosed pimply youth graduated from uni and commenced preaching to those lesser beings. Likewise, the older "convert" who thinks he/she knows all there is to know and we lesser mortals are just plain ignorant. For your information I don't place all conservationists in the same basket, but my illustration serves to show just how some of them are so offputting to the masses and why they are their own (and their cause's) worst enemy. Ring a bell?


you said: "They have had these ideals instilled into them from a young age. Recycling, saving water, fuel efficiency, etc all part of life now - not when you and I were 20! As I have said before, young people have a much greener outlook than our generation and your assumption that these people are rich and bored and class-conscious is utter crap!"

First up, nowhere did I say that "these people are rich and bored and class-conscious" Throughout this whole debate you have used my words in a different context to how I have applied them, and I think the readers here are wise enough not to be fooled by your machinations. You are either "slow" to grasp what I am saying, or else totally dishonest in your debating skills.

Secondly, we must be living in different worlds mate. 12 yrs ago when I came to Brizzy there wasn't a piece of paper in the street............we chose bracken ridge because it was so clean and "fresh" as were the other suburbs that we looked at. Nowadays you can't move 10 paces without encountering a Mackers bag or cup or some other piece of crap. Where does it come from? Semi-detatched suburbia mommy or her little darlings? Correct.............her little darlings! Is it my generation tagging all over the place or mommy's little darlings? And yes, the perpetrators cross all boundaries, in fact, in my experience, double income middle class are just as likely to offend as working class, lower income/lower educated, so my argument is not based on class, as the phenomenon of "disenfranchised youth" (as they perceive themselves) knows no boundaries.


Now your, "As for this rant - well I wont comment too much. However, this 'new' wave of environmentalism has affected the way people vote! Votes change legislation - its as simple as that. Thats why there's a review of the MBMP. Prefences - the new environmentalists have given enough votes to Green candidates to make their prefences so much more important. Undemocratic you say - this is the essence of the word for goodness sake - its how democracy works!"

No it isn't. It is how democracy is flawed..........or at least the Australian version, which incidentally, I totally accept, just as I accepted Australian citizenship. That doesn't mean to say that I have to agree with it.

The concept of "allocation of preferences' is totally abhorrent to me. If I want someone to represent me, then I want someone to represent me, I don't want or need 2nd or 3rd choices. First past the post or proportional representation is my idea of a democratic government, not one that is propped up by a party that got minimum votes and doesn't represent my political opinions. If I vote labour, Liberal or whatever, I don't consider that party to be representing me if it is shored up by the votes given to another party and then has to pander to that other party's agenda.


kev

[PinHead]

I've got it..the solution to the so called man made greenhouse effect..we do need the greenhouse effect but apparently some feel we need to lower the amount of some gases etc in the atmosphere. 2 of these are water vapour and CO2...as humans we inhale air..we exhale..wait for it....waiting..you got it..CO2 and the air is at 100% humidity.
NOW...my solutiuon is...if every greenie and their supporters stopped breathing permanently, just think how much lower the CO2 and water vapour levels would be..now all I have to do is get some scientist to say it is true and VOILA...filthy rich me!!!!

[Chris Ryan]

Eureka - Pinhead has found the answer!!!

LOL - mate you are too much......not saying I don't think your idea is exactly what we need.

I wonder if the rotting remains from vegans they want to rule the world without animals will be adding to that gas mix??

[Lovey80]

And Pinhead Coral bleaching - google that and see what pops up! But then again you wont believe anything bad is happening will you? Everything's great to you. Mate, thats disillusionment of the highest order.

Lefty with that comment you just showed to one and all that you have no bloody idea what your talking about!!!! If half of the so called 'Experts' had an idea what was causing most of these so called "adverse" effects on the GBR it would be quite interesting.

There are 2 possible outcomes to this..............

Option 1: THE LIKELY SENARIO(This may be already the case as it is or at least partially the case) The so called experts actually have a clue and realise that humans are having so little effect on the GBR that 99% of the restrictions put on everyday australians are absolutely unwaranted.

They shut thier mouths and push valid research to back rooms where the public and certainly the media can not lay thier eyes on it because the (fundamental idealist/environmentalists) lose the reasoning for the outcry that they make and more importantly lose unnessecary funding for BS projects.

Option 2: The situation above remains the same however the "scientists" that actually know that all is not so bad as first thought. They speak up about it and lose funding and support from fundamentalist groups such as the ACMS that sprook about thier research because it doesn't meet thier IDEALS.

Please read the link below, its written by a PHD in Marine biology an man with over 10 years research on the GBR and over 1000 claimed dives in the region.

http://www.newsweekly.com.au/articles/2005jul30_e.html

Unlike you and 99% of the so called "GREENS" this bloke has a clue but will never get the recognition he deserves because the fundamentalist left wing dole bludgers will denounce his research because it doesnt suit want they want pure and simple/

[lefty-green]

I wasn't even going to reply after reading your post Kev. We will have to agree to disagree I suppose. I have my opinions and you have yours. I'm not going to nitpick your last post because someone saying this NOW...my solutiuon is...if every greenie and their supporters stopped breathing permanently, just think how much lower the CO2 and water vapour levels would be..now all I have to do is get some scientist to say it is true and VOILA...filthy rich me!!!! shows me that its not worthwhile trying to explain my opinion. The person who said this is on your side Kev, no matter how tongue in cheek it was, a ridiculous statement is a ridiculous statement.

Fact is, environmental issues aren't going away any time soon. I'm trying to be devil's advocate as I have an interest in both rec fishing and the environment. And I feel that all rec fishers should be more green than not. I stand corrected though, given the pasting I have received. Its interesting times indeed. Lets see how ausfishers react when the snapper bag limit goes to 2 fish above 45cm because they're overfished by rec fishers! Then we may see some concessions for MPA's - or maybe not? Who knows? Time will tell.

Good fishing to you all!
Lefty

[kingtin]

I

wasn't even going to reply after reading your post Kev.

The truth being that you don't have an answer. You twisted and quoted out of context, things I said, to further your cause and when I tackled you on it, you didn't have one single answer. I trust that this was through a misunderstanding or oversight as opposed to fudging the issue. As I said, many of those fighting the conservationist cause, are their own worst enemies. A bit of humour is injected into the situation and you just don't seem to get it, just like so many "crusaders". So far up themselves with their 'worthiness" that they simply turn off many folk who would otherwise listen to what they have to say, if they were merely passionate about their cause, and not so bloody "holy". Fighting a cause does not mean that you are the new crusaders and that those who disagree, are infidels.

It's sad that the manner in which you, and many like you, approach your cause, defeats your otherwise noble intentions. More listening, less preaching and a presentaion of facts, to those you are trying to reach, and others may well listen to what you have to say and even support you, if in a somewhat different manner.

It is not about "sides" but about listening and learning. learning that is, what is scientifically proven. Even folk from different sides of the political spectrum support each other at times. The world is grey, not black and white, and someone who disagrees is not necessarily your enemy, or harmful to your cause. It is the general consensus on Ausfish that the vast majority of rec fishers are environmentally aware and use best practices to produce decent outcomes. They take time to talk to their kids and others about the issues facing us, but unfortunately, the "Green Lobby" when they appear here, always seem to treat us with disdain. Your opening post was:

"No wonder reco's have a poor image with articles like the one being discussed appearing in the press. I hope no-one reads the above drivel and publishes it in any mainstream media.
Shame on you

You then went on in a response to me:

"This is a very disappointing post! You are guilty of the very thing you you accuse the greens of. Are you not coercing, subterfuging, undermining established authority, subjugating and indoctrinating the disillusioned by sprouting such drivel?"

Reminds me of my bloody school teacher, back in the 50's!

If you had been here a bit longer, you would have recognised the intent, good faith, and perhaps the personality of those who post here. The net is a wonderful place, giving you time to think about your responses and get to know those to who you respond. You came here with all guns blazing (IMHO), and despite my impression that you are an honourable and passionate chap, it will serve you well if you listen (read) what is indeed being said, and backed by facts..........facts that are documented and pointed out to you. You should not immediately take a defensive stance and assume that those who disagree with you are in someway against you. Did you even bother to look at my references to the Nazi party and The Greens? I bet not, otherwise you could not deny that there are parallels.

I've done my best here to try and show where, (in my opinion) you have got off on the wrong foot, hopefully, without patronising you. If it appears that way, then I can assure you that is not my intent.

In closing I'll simply say: Minority groups are not the way to go be they Greens or whatever. Balance of power in the hands of a minority and unfair representation of a minority at the expense of the wishes of the majority, can only lead to disaster. If you want change, then I propose you seek it via mainstream political parties as History has shown that any other course of action is doomed to failure.

I'll say no more on this as I do feel that I have simply wasted my efforts.


kev

[webby]

The bell has gone and the bout is over, as it really has turned into a, you throw a punch then i throw a punch.
regards

[Black_Rat]

I am a knuckle-dragging drongo !

The EPA are pushing for bans on the receational fisherman fishing parts of Merton Bay we love and respect

Yet the same EPA have given the green light to rape and pillage the same ecosytem they are trying to protect ? for the sake of another airport runway in Brisbane !!!

Whilst happy to rid those that fish certain areas the EPA are happy to approve the envirometal rape of Moreton Bay ??????????????????????????????????????

Got me buggered ? All we want is a fair go !!!!!!

EPA hands of our bay !!!

Stop pollution not those that respect and enjoy the bay !!!!!!

Damien.

[mod5]

As Grant said in an early post, me thinks Lefty Green needs to come clean about his real identity before I ban him for creating two logins on Ausfish.

Some of his fishing threads under his proper name are pretty good in fact.