I know you are probably joking but would that do the trick or make any difference at all??Originally Posted by Lovey80
Just need a few big boats going flat nacker up and down the river for a few days aerating the water should do the trick
Cheers Chris
A shAme to see those big flattie too
The posts above by Jim and Stonecold are in absolute terms the reason for the fish kill and our associated country wide water quality problems fresh and salt.
It is also the reason I disrespect with a vengeance the green machine who usurp political will from solid environmental understandings that have withstood the test of time and instead watermellon on maniacle in the extreme over emotional self interested factors that will not, given the state of play, cannot make a difference outside of ideology.
Recfishing is an easy target as there is no mechanism to defend against fantacy in management of our resource.
Will be interesting to see how they treat recfisherman, with contempt or competency in their future ban time frame.
The line that divides 'fishing' is very wide, recfishing can be aligned with Buffalo and American Indians in its harvesting method, commercial fishing is more of a guns blazing approach toward many fish populations, recfisherman have 0 in common with commercial fishing, ideology is the only reason the departmental managers will not recognise this.
Anyway in short hope the department chooses not to bastardise good people just for the fun of it this time around and relaxes the recfishing retraint on individual freedom and movement in the Richmond the moment it is 'right' to do so.......
cheers fnq
Last edited by FNQCairns; 16-01-2008 at 08:46 AM.
I know you are probably joking but would that do the trick or make any difference at all??
A shAme to see those big flattie too
No the post was tongue in cheek as you know, the big problem with the Richmond is the lower order organisms have been wiped out, it's not about the fish (except in emotion) they will easily re-populate in their own good and easy timetime (their populations are well healthy).
Boat exhaust and residues in a waterway such as this would normally be handled and negated (in the true definiton of the word) without raising a ecological sweat, that cannot happen ATM without the true warriors of the environment being in healthy population and flux.
They rebound fast which is a good thing, far better to emote toward doing something to make a difference as per Jim and Stonecold above.
But yeah when bubbled, air does make a difference when the low order organisms are in the picture, natural tidal movement and with time and cleaner cleaner catchment flush's that are coming will do it all quite well, as useless as that all sounds.
cheers fnq
G'day!
I understand something of the problems along rivers with farming, etc.,and how they change the ecology.
I am not a scientist in any way but I am trying to get my head around this.
Logically , it would seem to me that the tons of fresh water would have some "cleansing" (dilution) effect on the bad stuff caused by land usage/mis-use.
I guess I am wondering if the fish are killed by inability to survive in fresh water or
by the badies carried by the fresh water or the man-caused badies in the water.
I am mindful that elsewhere on Ausfish there is reference to big fish kill caused by "water turnover" in impoundments. Different cause - same result: dead fish.
With due respect to members who work in riparian ecology, I wonder if you could be a little like i was some 40 years ago. I worked full time with "street kids" in Bondi. I began to despair for the youth of Australia. They were drunken, drugged, fornicating, foul mouthed, job less, homeless, violent and lawless. This was my world and my work. In a moment of clear retrospection, I came to realise that these kids were a very tiny minority. The great majority of aussie kids were just the opposite to what i was experiencing. I could tell great stories ofmy work but it was not what was happening in most of Australia.
I wonder if in the man-made bog we have ceased to see the cleansing effect of pure water? My shower water is dirty but I am clean.
Ray De R
Hi all, reelemin1974 A good argument for "in possesion limits" hey?
Jim Tait, spot on. I am not an agricultural scientist but have been around a while and studied most of the rivers / streams where I fish, both salt and fresh.
We collectively have done a great job of destroying our waterways with development and restructuring.
At least our tidal coastal rivers have a slight chance to recover but our inland fresh water streams have no chance. Land clearing, cultivation and chemicles have almost killed off our inland streams.
Fish stocking will stem the decline for a while but as we all know the natural enviroment must be replaced to some degree.
Development of any type along our flood plains must be minimised and the whole of society had better take a look at what we have done and continue to do.
A very large proportion of our problems relate to greed, bagging out, cane, cotton, rice, lack of care or consideration for our country.
A very big problem is livestock trampling down river banks and destroying vegetation. I fish regularly on a border river and one bank is protected for at least 100 meters along the stream for km's from cattle and the other not, the difference is amazing.
Anyone who could remember the Condamine River from the 40's
before irrigation, chemicals and and other factors will know where I am coming from.
Have Fun Haji-Baba
G'day Ray,
If only that were the case.
Yes there will be a heap of vegetation at the river mouth and beyond but the real perpetrators on this event are still in the catchment and will be ready to do the same again next month should we get another flood of this magnitude.
I'll digress a little...from the DNR website
"Potential acid sulfate soils are naturally occurring soils containing iron sulfides (pyrite). They become actual acid sulfate soils when they are dried, usually because of human activity, and the pyrite is exposed to air. In air, pyrite is oxidised, resulting in production of sulfuric acid.
As a direct result of inappropriate drainage and excavation for urban development and agriculture along the coast of NSW, enough actual acid sulfate soil has been created to generate 50,000 tonnes of sulfuric acid every year. This causes up to $23 million dollars worth of damage to the state's fishing industry each year"
Basically the catchment area contains soils containing iron sulfides...these soils are historically swamps or low lying areas prone to flooding. Joe blo comes along...and it may not be a farmer, it may be a property developer. He sees an opportunity for development and drains the swamp. The water table drops and exposes the iron sulfides to oxygen. They then oxidise. Its not until the soil profile refills that the sulfuric acid becomes mobile.
Where acid sulfate soils (ASS) are exposed in the drain itself the acid water (black water) drains directly into the waterways. The hydrological movement of these blackwaters is not localised either. I found it difficult to believe this myself however after consultation with DPI I was briefed on macropores in the soil stratum. These macropores can be the diameter of your wrist. Water moves through the macropores under pressure. DPI are unsure as to how these form...I was sceptical but after digging several soil pits at a property in the bungawalbyn swamp I can tell you they exist. I'll see if I can track down my pics of the pits and check them out for clarity to show you what I mean. The water was spurting out of the macropores a good 300mm at a profile depth 600mm. Essentially and this is more relevant with sandy soils, the black water can travel quite a distance underground. If in its hydrologcal flow that blackwater should be intersected by joe bloes drain then essentially that drain is an escape point for blackwater produced in an area which could concevably be hundreds of hactares!
I guess what I am trying to say is the shower water is dirty for sure, however while ever the ASS are exposed so are we! same for siltation and organics.
G'day Stonecold!
I don't deny your science of "blackwater".
Where is the science of your blackwater mixed with massive amounts of rainwater? Can you apply scientific principles to that or are you suggesting an unproven theory?
Ray de R
Ray its all here,
http://naturalresources.nsw.gov.au/soils/sulfate.shtml
http://www.data.greenspan.com.au/dlwchotspots/
http://www.nrw.qld.gov.au/land/ass/index.html
http://www.nrw.qld.gov.au/land/ass/impacts.html
http://www.environment.gov.au/coasts/cass/index.html
http://naturalresources.nsw.gov.au/soils/damaging.shtml - this ones pretty staight
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/research/staff/peter-slavich - this guy is the guru if still in doubt
Cheers
G'day again!
Thanks forall that material. I see it just repeats the stuff I said I do not argue with.
Ok. I have read all that. Except for the assertion (unproven?) , that in 1995 after a prolonged drought there was a fish kill in the Pimpama River, I see no science that connects the great reasearch with what happens on land with what happens in an estuary causing fish kill.
In other words which salt water creatures simply "drowned" by being in a saltless environment caused by a massive fresh and which died because of the problems on the land being transferred into the river?
I think this is something for us to think about before making a connection which is yet unproven.
Maybe this current flood will give opportunity for further investigation of this connection between what happens on land and fish kill in a big flood.
Ray De R
Last edited by RayDeR; 16-01-2008 at 03:09 PM.
I read in QFM after the last small fish kill, in an article by tony zahn which mentioned the "black water" issues in the richmond river. I can't remember the figures but the gist of it was that a small amount of black water will strip the oxygen from a massive amount of otherwise good water. given that there is a lot of Kms of riverbank populated with cane farms and pasture, resonalble to assume the water in the Richmond is pretty well F@*ked right now. the biggest drama is it will not all get to the sea....but keep moving up and back with each tide...trapping fish above from moving down and preventing those below from moving up. result last year was Massive schools of whiting being decimated by every tom, dick and harry @ woodburn. the fish were trapped up river from a slug of black water and they were running out of food. for a few weeks there were cricket scores of hungry whiting being landed on any form of bait you could conjure up.....bread and cheese dough was a good one I'm told. near the end the quality and condition of fish was getting quite poor, they were very hungry and had nothing left in the tank. One fella commented that the fish were heads and scales....no meat.
On the bright side....the tweed river has had quite a bit of work done on it to prevent/limit this kind of disaster occuring. lets hope it worked...and that "the powers that be" use it as a valuable lesson for the richmond.
Cheers Roo.
Ray,
its not unproven - does the water coming in to the top of the estuary look like 'rainwater' ? Its not chocolate brown for nothing - beyond mere appearances water quality sampling shows it to be full of oxygen consuming nutrients (most attached to soil particles), organic material and in drainages from acid sulphate soils - sulphuric acidic (low pH) water - none of this fell from the sky!!
Also, just about all of the fish (and crustaceans) referred to in the fish kill - flatties, bream, mullet, prawn, mud crabs etc - can cope with low salinity water (even pure fresh for the fish - there's a hatchery in Qld where they keep flathead in freshwater dams!) - you don't evolve and survive in estuaries otherwise as salinity swings are a natural feature of these environments.
The chemistry associated with oxygen depletion of estuarine waters due to these loads of sediment, nutrients and sulphuric acid are well established - so lets face up to what needs to be done to address it!
Regards and tight lines - Jim
'Stick to fishing instead of fighting' - JC
Just a last note. Normal o2 levels in water (both salt and fresh) are between 6-8ppm. On Monday DPI measured o2 levels in the Richmond at less than 1ppm.
and
there are not to many that would argue that our common garden variety eel handles fresh water no trouble at all....plenty of them belly up
Last edited by stonecold; 16-01-2008 at 05:04 PM.
Thanks!
You have come somewhere near answering the question I was asking about the connection between what is happening on the land and the flood water causing fish kill.
Is there any documentation on this like material you gave on land degredation?
Ray De R
Can you spot the 5 muddies in this pic??
BTW tomorrow I am going to take a walk across the road to the Canal where 40 tonne of fish washed up today! If you know the canal in Ballina near the ferry, It's not that big.
Prety sure last nights announcment came from the commercial fishing sector in a pre-empt of the obvious,I to could not see the estimated 6 month closure as being of any real value,my thoughts were of probably twice that to allow a full breeding cycle for all estuary species,it was however pointed out to me that the period of time (6 months?) will be for ocean fish to migrate into the system and hopefully take up residence.
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