PHP Warning: Use of undefined constant VBA_SCRIPT - assumed 'VBA_SCRIPT' (this will throw an Error in a future version of PHP) in ..../includes/functions_navigation.php(802) : eval()'d code on line 1
Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 33

Thread: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

  1. #1
    Ausfish Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004

    Question Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    G'day all,

    I just thought I'd elucidate some interesting findings I've observed over the past years. Myself and best mate regularly tag large sharks for a research group here in Queensland. We have noticed something very interesting regarding the prevalence and behaviour of these big noahs. One of the areas we fish is frequented by diurnal divers. By day there is not a shark to be seen - both from our diving observations and those of the many other divers we've consulted. We wouldn't even bother putting a bait in by day. However, after dark, the rush begins, and the amount of sharks we tag can be alarmingly high to say the least. Yet we've had many a diver question whether there are any sharks left in the area at all! Now my point, or question, is this: Are the findings of some research groups erroneous, given the fact that they may be conducting their quantitative research solely by day? If they are observing numbers purely by sight, then surely these are flawed methods, given that many areas are shark ghost towns by day, but infested by night. One saga that comes to mind is the grey nurse debate. I have no knowledge of this species, as I've never caught one, and do not ever fish the areas they frequent. However, I've often wondered if the research coming from the left side was undertaken diurnally. If so, this is both incomplete and very misguided, given the trends we have observed with other non-endangered species. If not, then I'd be very interested to hear how these people arrived at such a conclusion, as I'm stretching to come up with possibilities. Can i conclude that they really are a beguiling bunch, or am I just missing a major point here? Interested to hear any thoughts, as I feel that highlighting any flaws in their research gathering methods may be of use in dire situations such as the moreton bay marine park. Of course we'd need the right ears to voice our confuting evidence to, but that's another issue altogether. Thanks.

    Cuzza
    Last edited by cuzzamundi; 11-09-2007 at 03:28 AM.

  2. #2
    Ausfish Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005

    Re: Flaws?

    Cuzza.

    I have been doing a literature search on research that has been performed on the habitat and marine biology of Moreton Bay and there seems to be a close association between the EPA and Centre for Marine Studies (CMS) at UQ. This is a good thing.
    Hopefully the CMS can add some rigor to the EPA evaluation of the cost benefit of the rezoning of the Moreton Bay Marine Park.

    I found this paper published on the Premiers website.
    http://www.premiers.qld.gov.au/policy/research/phdfund/What%5Foutcomes%5Fare%5Favailable%5Ffrom%5Fcomplet ed%5Fresearch/

    The paper is titled: Effectiveness of Marine reserves in MoretonBayMarinePark. Unfortunately flaws in the study methodology don’t allow any worthwhile conclusions to be drawn.

    • It is a non-peer reviewed paper which means it has not been scrutinised by experts in the field and as such must be treated as a lower standard than a peer reviewed paper.

    • What they have done is compared a 2 reserve areas with near reserve and distant areas. This is fraught with bias as the marine areas where probably setup originally because of their marine holding ability so there is a selection bias there.

    • They have failed to statistically evaluate the different sites to see if there is indeed a statistical difference between them.

    • On a last note on methodology there is a problem with the interpretation of the Effects of reserve protection on marine biodiversity chapter of the paper. Looking at the CI (confidence intervals) there is no difference between any of the sites.

    I hope the EPA is not basing there rezoning on these findings as the study is flawed in design and evaluation.

    Scott

  3. #3
    Ausfish Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004

    Re: Flaws?

    Thanks Scott for the very interesting data there! There are obviously MANY discrepancies that need to be accounted for, and if we can somehow expose them to the wider public, maybe then they will serve as the dehortative they could potentially be. I'm sure most of our citizens would abhor what they're trying to do if they were fully aware. Only question is, how do we go about making that happen.

    cuzza

  4. #4
    Ausfish Platinum Member Adamy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006

    Re: Flaws?

    Good thread Cuzza... pity about the title - I hope the thread gets popular:

    SGB just sent you a PM about that research. I too have been doing a similar thing and found the following: But I'll summarise it first in case people dont read it all

    Basically... Marine reserves arent proven to preserve or improve biodiversity at all. They are proven to increase the general size of preserve inhabitants - but no increase in numbers and worse sometimes a decrease in numbers and richness.

    Cheers,

    Adam

    4.1. Species richness
    In general, we found that the marine reserves in Moreton Bay did not have a significant difference in species richness than the non-reserve 'fished' areas . Biodiversity (i.e. species richness and diversity) within marine reserves is expected to increase due to the cessation of fishing compared to fished areas (McClanahan, 1994; Jennings et al., 1996; Wantiez et al., 1997; Halpern, 2003; Worm et al., 2006). However, here are contrasting empirical results: in a number of studies species richness was found to decline or not change in the protected areas compared to fished sites , as shown in Fiji (Jennings and Polunin, 1997), Tasmania (Edgar and Barrett, 1999), Slovenia (Lipej et al., 2003) and Italy (Fraschetti et al., 2005). Furthermore, Jennings and Polunin (1997) suggested that diversity does not have to consistently change due to cessation of fishing. In many situations, removal of fishing pressure may cause a decline in species richness because of unpredictable ecosystem changes or because particular species become dominant and exclude others


  5. #5
    Ausfish Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004

    Re: Flaws In Their Research???

    Thanks adam for the academic citations! Once again, evidence right there. I was thinking we could all maybe compile as much empirical evidence that undermines the concept of green zones as possible and try find a way to relay the facts to the broader public. There must be a way. As I and many others on here have already stated, this would change things drastically. Afterall, I believe the public's inaction is not due to apathy, but rather ignorance of the true situation/s at hand. I've changed the forum heading - great call! Thanks once again, I always enjoy reading your other posts in this section. Let's hope more come on board with their findings and we can maybe get something cooking.

    cuzza

  6. #6

    Question Re: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    Hey
    I saw a doco on that very subject not to long ago
    Appa-rently they count the no. of sharks they observe in a certain area at a certain time and then multiply those no.s using some formula they have devised to work out if a certain species no.s are declining or increasing.
    This was not a 24hr observation.
    I would say that this method is flawed
    Regards
    Hori

  7. #7

    Re: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    Cuzza

    As to the GNS most defiantly based on faulty reasoning surveys are only at a certain depth.

    There's many more habitats unknown to the authorities where sharks congregate in colonies that would far and exceed the number that's stated .

    There has been ample anecdotal evidence that the grey nurse shark population is far greater. One just recently was the sighting of a Albino
    GNS Estimated to be 4 to 6 years old why has it never been reported before, it opens it up that there are obviously more aggregation sites in DEEP and/or lesser known reef areas.

    Lets look at Otway and Burke (2004) REPORT
    it is stated that grey nurse sharks are inshore, coastal dwelling species in reefs of 15 – 50 water depth and cites Otway et al. 2003 in terms of distribution. The 2003 reference states that grey nurse sharks occur south of Mooloolaba on the east coast of Australia.
    In fact, the 2004 report presents the finding that one tagged grey nurse shark was recaptured at Yeppoon on the mid-Qld coast in 70 m water depth. This finding expands the distribution of and habitat available to grey nurse sharks further north and further offshore by hundreds of square kilometres.

    At least the heat got turned up by the NCC going to cout and they are now calling fot tenders to do a new survey lets hope that they will take into consideration the few that know a little more and work out a deal where these sites are that they wont be turned into green zones.


    There will be days when the fishing is better than one's most optimistic forecast, others when it is far worse. Either is a gain over just staying home.

  8. #8

    Re: Flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamy View Post
    They are proven to increase the general size of preserve inhabitants
    Adamy - would you say this is a good thing? Dont larger animals produce more eggs?

  9. #9

    Re: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    Here's a quote from Sue Pillans' research. Doesn't this prove MPA's work??

    The effects of marine reserve protection on exploited finfish species (yellowfin bream Acanthopagrus australis, dusky flathead Platycephauls fuscus and grunter bream Pomadasys kaakan) were examined and results revealed that both marine reserves supported significantly higher relative density, mean size (except P. kaakan) and biomass of exploited species compared to non-reserve ‘fished’ sites (Fig.2). The most popular angling species A. australis responded most to reserve protection with at least three times higher density, 10% increase in mean size and at least 15% greater biomass within both marine reserves compared to non-reserve sites. Tag-recapture data revealed that two species (bream A. australis and flathead P. fuscus) moved outside reserve boundaries into adjacent fished waters. The results of this study demonstrate the effectiveness of small (< 6km2) inshore marine reserves for multiple exploited finfish species.


    It also worth noting that she says "significantly higher" which suggests that she did compare things statistically.


    Thanks to Scott for posting this link.


    Matt C
    Last edited by Matt_Campbell; 12-09-2007 at 09:00 AM.

  10. #10
    Ausfish Platinum Member Adamy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006

    Re: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    Matt its all spin!! The methodology in the study is the main problem - what they are trying to say is these findings can and should be used/extrapolated to other areas in the bay. But the problem with that is they only surveyed shallow water (intertidal zones) areas - up to 1 metre deep so the size and types of fish that live in these types of environments may not and we know definitely do not live in deeper water areas of the bay. For instance - how many mudcrabs have you caught of Wello reef recently - and that area isnt even THAT deep or that far from the shore.

    The implications of her studies are significant for shallow mad flats, where protection from commercial fishing and unwanted by-catch has the most effect. tunnel netting for instance captures all of the species of a minimum size, within a given area and thats the significance of this study. Further protection for bycatch is the most obvious beneficiary of no take areas.

    If you had read the study carefully - you may have noted that she had to use a triangulation approach to measure any statistical significance at all. She indicates that apart from one specific area which stands as an outlier (outliers are usually discounted in statistics - because they skew results - the outlier is an outlier because of reasons - (variables) other than which is being explained within the current model)... back to my point. She mentions that the effects of no take areas are very subtle (even with the triangulation approach)... and then concludes that bigger reserves are better... but better for what?

    You highlight her mentioning Bream and Flathead... She was only able to pick these because they were really the only fish she captured - apart from whiting that are recreational targets - the rest of the fish (Nekton) she caught and measured were species like bony bream, puffer fish and other trash we dont want to catch - let alone eat.... so whats your point??? (Better yet whats hers?) the more reserves we have the more and bigger puffer fish and Bony bream.. YAY!!!

    She also admits that the problem with the Flathead and Bream is that they are highly mobile and tranistory - which means they wont spend their entire lives in or around the reserve area - Bream and Flathead dont reside, breed and die in the one area - they move. She had a similar problem with the Mud crabs - on one hand she says they spend they're entire lives in the one area - due to recapture rates of tagged crabs - and then in the same paragraph she has them heading out to deep sea to spawn... I dont know much about the life cycle of the humble muddie - but to me shes contradicted herself. Yeh I know.... but its still a contradiction without explanation. The other thing about the muddies is that they become a dominant species in certain areas (intertidal zone in local no-take reserves) - which is why they become larger - they eat or scare away lots of other crabs and fish and therefore diversity is affected. Culling some of the larger Males means that diversity can in fact be enhanced, an argument against no-take areas.

    So Matt.... thats what we're saying - the science is not settled - the methodology is not good and the results cannot be extrapolated/used across different tidal zones.

    Hope that helps!

    Adam
    Last edited by Adamy; 12-09-2007 at 09:27 PM.


  11. #11
    Ausfish Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004

    Re: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    Some excellent info here fellas - exactly what we need. I think by arguing different methods etc. we WILL arrive at a very solid conclusion. I think this is imperative if we want to achieve objectivity whilst examining facts.

    Thanks hori and fishingjew for those interesting facts regarding the grey nurses - i didn't suspect anything but those fautly techniques. So many disparities, so few ears to hear them...for now, we hope.

    cuzza

  12. #12
    Ausfish Platinum Member Adamy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006

    Re: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    Just a note to add to my previous comments; The link provided by Scott is to a 4 page summary of the article - which is just mostly spin... the good bits which support her personal conclusions. I have the actual 14 page journal article which appears in a trash journal called "biological conservation". Whilst it is a "peer reviewed" journal it is a journal whose peers are other conservationists - like preaching to the converted. The author can select or nominate their own reviewer(s).

    If for interests sake anyone wants a copy just pm me your email address. please read it objectively - that is the methodology behind the critical review process - if this process had been carried out properly in the first place - I believe that this article would never have seen the light of day.

    I also have copies of the other articles referenced - "marine reserve protection of Mud Crabs".

    Cheers,

    Adam


  13. #13
    Ausfish Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004

    Re: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    This paper might put the cat amongst the pigeons:

    http://www.seafriends.org.nz/issues/cons/burdens.pdf

    Detection of recovery of fish density in marine reserves often suffers from lack of rigour in the design of field surveys (Hurlbert 1984; Stewart-Oaten
    et al. 1986; Underwood 1990, 1993). As Underwood (1990) pointed out, studies lacking replication cannot be logically interpreted. In the marine reserve context there are many reasons why researchers might have limits on their
    sampling designs. However, a critical evaluation of the experimental designs employed by many published studies brought to light the following problems with replication and lack of control sites:
    (1) insufficient sample replication (for example only one site sampled inside and outside a reserve, or no control sites sampled at all);
    (2) spatial confounding (for example all control sites located only at one end of the reserve, so that comparisons are confounded by unknown location effects);
    (3) lack of temporal replication (most studies consist of surveys done at only one time);
    (4) lack of replication at the reserve level limiting the generality of results (although in many cases this reflects the number of reserves available); and
    (5) non-random placement of reserves, i.e. often reserves are sited to include ‘special’ or unique features, which causes difficulties in selecting valid control sites (this is obviously no fault of the researchers).
    To date, there are no well-designed studies that avoid the above problems as well as possessing a time series of ‘before’ and ‘after’ data.

    How many studies unambiguously demonstrate significant within-reserve increases in the density of exploited species? Edgar and Barrett (1997) recognized that, with a sufficiently large sample size, a statistically significant difference between two sites (separated either spatially or temporally) can almost always be obtained due simply to true natural biological variability between the sites. That is, the null hypothesis of no difference between two biological entities is necessarily false. They therefore proposed a 100% increase in density as a minimum criterion for claiming the existence of a ‘reserve effect’. This type of approach is more generally known as bio-equivalence testing, in which an effect is not considered biologically significant unless it exceeds a pre-specified threshold (McBride 1999). If we use the 100% threshold, and ignore flaws in sampling design, then there were only a handful of instances where differences in density of individual species between reserve and fished areas can be regarded as biologically significant (Polunin & Roberts 1993; Francour 1994; Harmelin
    et al. 1995; Russ & Alcala 1996; Edgar & Barrett 1997, 1999; Willis et al. 2003). In many other cases, slight trends towards higher reserve densities were described, but these were of insufficient magnitude to confidently attribute them to reserve
    effects, rather than real biological variability at the spatial or temporal level (Roberts & Polunin 1992; Chapman & Kramer 1999; Paddack & Estes 2000). If we consider only those studies that are replicated in both time and space, to our knowledge there are only a few that establish increases in excess of 100%.

    Also it is one thing demonstrating a benifit inside the reserve - another to show fishery wide benfits:

    Several theoretical studies have indicated that marine reserves can provide increases or equivalence in yield under the assumed model and parameter values (Polacheck 1990; DeMartini 1993; Attwood & Bennett 1995; Sladek Nowlis & Roberts 1999). However, if management decisions are based upon models built on unquestioned assumptions then we may find ourselves making costly errors. We reinforce this point by noting that the model of Parrish (1999) produces a contrary result; it suggests that the large reserves that are believed to be required to contribute to the Californian groundfish fishery might actually be to the detriment of the fishery, due to the displacement of fishing effort onto the remaining fishing grounds. In contrast, Horwood et al. (1998) conclude that reserves will have little effect on fishery yield. Yet, the model of Hastings and Botsford (1999) concludes that, even with arbitrarily high fishing effort outside of large reserves, marine reserves will return fisheries yields equivalent to traditional fisheries management for a wide variety of groundfish. Taken together, the conflicting conclusions from various plausible models lead us back to the beginning, where we must admit that, at present, we cannot predict what the effects of marine reserves might be.



  14. #14
    Ausfish Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005

    Re: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    Thanks Adam and Billfisher for the great posts.

    Adam I will send that stuff tommorow.

    Conducting studies in a biological model is extremely difficult because you can't do controlled experiments. Point blank. Unless you can do a randonised contol trial it is always going to be inference and have flaws.
    Billfisher has layed out the reason why.
    Scott

  15. #15
    Ausfish Bronze Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005

    Re: Maybe Another Angle To Explore-Flaws In Their Research???

    Thanks for the post Billfisher; thats an excellent link to an interesting website which provided a lot of information and confirmed a few suspicions. if anyone else is interested in what a marine reserve can and cant do I'd strongly recommend a read of this page:

    http://www.seafriends.org.nz/issues/...ine.htm#merits

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •