Ethanol Fuels?

[Poodroo]

My mate owns and runs 2 Stihl outlets here in Tassie...They have been told by Stihl Aust to warn all customers not to run ethanol based fuel in any of Stihl`s products 2 or 4 stroke as it is causing major concerns and warranty claims due to its ethanol base....I know there is a big difference between there products and an outboard...but it is the same principal i guess...

Would this mean that BP..or who ever is selling the fuel is open to litigation....or is it that the big fuel companys just dont care...

The fuel companies are just too big to care about anything really accept for the money in their pockets. Whenever any inventor comes up with a viable fuel alternative that will be better for the environment the ideas mysteriously vanish. Someone I knew who worked for BHP said that the reasons behind the mysterious disappearences is simple. The big fuel companies buy the idea for copious amounts of cash and then when they own the rights to that idea it gets canned. No more threat to the oil companies. Hmmmmm.

Poodroo

[snelly1971]

There was an email that was sent to all Stihl outlets...i will try and dig it up and post it ....makes for interesting reading....the E10 ?? fuel in question was at the time of the release of the email was only being trialled in two states by memory...one was QLD the other i cant remember....and as i can remember they had up until Feb this year to supply signage on all petrol pumps that contained ethanol based fuel..?????

[Black_Rat]

My future brother-in-law soon to be brother-in-law (sister gets married tommorow) is a mechanic for Ford and warned me off ethonal blend years ago !

[finga]

Fair enough ethanol may be bad.
A question for all the learned ones, you know all those with some edumacation. I ask that because unless it's written on the pump I wouldn't know
And they all seem to have a disclaimer saying may contain ethanol.
Mind you though I usually only use a couple of servo's close to home.

....How do you tell if fuel has or has not got ethanol in it???

[troy]

If you used ethanol in your outboard and it caused a problem then how would you stand with your warranty.
Troy

[marco]

....How do you tell if fuel has or has not got ethanol in it???

you can smell it in there , a sort of fermentation kind of smell .

[finga]

you can smell it in there , a sort of fermentation kind of smell .

So how do you smell it unless you start pumping fuel??
Too late then isn't it??
Or can you smell the residue from the previous pumper??

[Kerry]

Really the Ethanol debate simply goes around in circles because some people don't/can't handle the answer to their question, not the right answer so lets ask the question again.

The ethanol debacle has more to do with politics then any of the self centred justifications. On one hand they run around thinking they sound all environmentally friendly with trying to mandate ethanol yet there is an overwhelming evidence in the real world there are more issues than they want to know about. Ah but stuff the real world they say, lets see if we can stuff it some more.

The "ethanol" industry make all sorts of claims, it's cheaper, it's cleaner, it's environmentally friendly then the question still remains, WHY don't the ethanol industry use the fuel themselves to produce the stuff? Surely they should be supporting their own prodcut, So why don't they?

....First of all they were one of the first companies caught sneaking ethanol into their fuel mixes as shown on A Current Affair some years ago.

Still waiting for a response to this statement? When was this?

Why don't some of the brains trust outline why Ethanol is so "environmentally" friendly ????

Still waiting for a response to this?

How about some more questions for the brains trust

- So what is apparently so good about ethanol? To us boating people?
- If the company that makes the stuff specifically says don't use it in marine applications, Why would you want to?

Regards, Kerry.

[DR]

http://northamerica.mercurymarine.co.../ethanol.php#6

[Poodroo]

Kerry if you want to know specifics of when ACA ran the story then get in touch with them. I can't recall specific dates because it was at least in the 3-5 year bracket or maybe even longer. When I mentioned it to my brother he also recalled seeing that story on A Current Affair so I know I didn't imagine it. Once again I'd like to point out that I am not trying to say ethanol is good, but rather I am trying to find out more info about it.

Poodroo

[Kerry]

I sort of expect that if people make statements then they would have the info to support the statement. But then we won't get too excited about current affair media sensationalism, talk about one sided stories.

Now to find out more about it one has to forget all the rhetoric, political grandstanding and the "invested interest" groups.

Boaties in the US have had some major issues with ethanol yet we over here ignore all that and carry on re-inventing the wheel. Ethanol might have a place of purpose in some applications but slef interest groups trying to drum up mandatory use use of ethanol in all fuels are nothing more than attempting to fullfill their own self interest goal!

So lets ask the question, How much energy does it take to make ethanol?

Really there is heaps and heaps of info out there if one really wants to look for it, just depends if you really want to know?

Here's one reason why you would not use ethanol in an outboard. Ethanol is hygroscopic, it will absorb moisture directly from the air and in the case of 2S's the last thing one wants sitting on the bores, bearings, journals etc is 10% water!

There is a negative sides to ethanol but the self interest groups conveniently forget these!

Regards, Kerry.

[marco]

So how do you smell it unless you start pumping fuel??
Too late then isn't it??
Or can you smell the residue from the previous pumper??

well yes it would be too late as you need to smell it in the tank , if your really worried go and pull the cap off the fill point at the servo and have a wiff . you might find the servo manager going off his tits but at least you will know lol .


in short they have to have a sticker for 10% or more , most in brisbane dont mess with it too much even though they can have 5% in there without having to tell you about it . in saying that shell optimax has always had 5%, thats how they get the octane increase .
the marine issue with the likes of bp is basically because of the storage of e10 requires some maintenance to ensure no water is in the fuel because as stated earlier that the ethanol gathers the water and therefore makes the ethanol heavier than the petrol and then seperates which could allow straight ethanol to be drawn from the bottom of the tank . so it is safer to say that in a marine ( moisture) enviroment do not use it .

i do know of reports that say there are issues of fuel mixture probelms with efi as the ethanol oxygenates the mixture a lot more and this has caused some headaches on the tuning side of things .

and for kerry , your question about the enviromental side of it , i would assume for every litre of e10 burned has 10% less carbon emissions in the atmospere compared to normal unleaded.

given all that im not convinced e10 is all that great although i have had numerous poeple tell me they are getting better performance and economy , but i will not use it in the boat regardless.

cheers
mark

[Poodroo]

I sort of expect that if people make statements then they would have the info to support the statement. But then we won't get too excited about current affair media sensationalism, talk about one sided stories.

Now to find out more about it one has to forget all the rhetoric, political grandstanding and the "invested interest" groups.

Boaties in the US have had some major issues with ethanol yet we over here ignore all that and carry on re-inventing the wheel. Ethanol might have a place of purpose in some applications but slef interest groups trying to drum up mandatory use use of ethanol in all fuels are nothing more than attempting to fullfill their own self interest goal!

So lets ask the question, How much energy does it take to make ethanol?

Really there is heaps and heaps of info out there if one really wants to look for it, just depends if you really want to know?

Here's one reason why you would not use ethanol in an outboard. Ethanol is hygroscopic, it will absorb moisture directly from the air and in the case of 2S's the last thing one wants sitting on the bores, bearings, journals etc is 10% water!

There is a negative sides to ethanol but the self interest groups conveniently forget these!

Regards, Kerry.

Thanks Kerry for explaining it and I see your point. I thought it was a simple enough topic to start with as I am new to the world of boating. I didn't realize how big a can of worms it was going to open. But the outcome is I found out more info about it and now know that my outboard when it comes back will not be running on ethanol fuel (knowingly) so thanks for the info.

Poodroo

[Black_Rat]

Thanks Kerry for explaining it and I see your point. I thought it was a simple enough topic to start with as I am new to the world of boating. I didn't realize how big a can of worms it was going to open. But the outcome is I found out more info about it and now know that my outboard when it comes back will not be running on ethanol fuel (knowingly) so thanks for the info.

Poodroo

Only a week with your boat lisence and you think you know boats !

[Kerry]

....and for kerry , your question about the enviromental side of it , i would assume for every litre of e10 burned has 10% less carbon emissions in the atmospere compared to normal unleaded.

?? Aren't we forgetting that it takes energy to make ethanol in the first place and maybe there is 10% less carbon emmissions in the burning stage BUT that 10% and in some instances probably more hydrocarbons have had to be burnt to produce the stuff in the first place!

The stuff can't be pumped, requires special transport arrangements, not forgetting the degradation of the land, water rescources etc etc. Gee with the current water situation might be some better purpose for water than irrigating ethanol crops for no overall benefitl.

This is where selective statements sound all warm and fuzz but in reality it is only shifting the souce of the hydrocarbon?

There is some evidence (depending on the sourse of the ethanol) to suggest that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than the energy that ethanol provides, which if so is really a dead duck.

Regards, Kerry.