Ethanol Fuels?

[BilgeBoy]

Good old Kerry...Stirs the pot just enough to keep it on the stove.

At 10% blend I wouldn't think the Hygroscopic action of Ethanonal is of that bigger concern. Engines of all types are exposed to water in many ways... pertol engines more so. Why? H2O is a byproduct of Petrol being burnt, Humidity causes condensation (worse at night) on the insides of engines and contaminates the oils etc etc. having said that, I sure would not like the E85 they run in the US.

From a political perspective....My take is this. Ethanol was the government's answer to a very big political backlash by Queensland Cain farmers. You see imported sugar is cheaper AND OUR GUYS WERE GOING BROKE!! So all of a sudden Ethanol comes on the scene (Made from sugar if I am not mistaken) and the whole thing goes quite. It was a win win for the "Grinners" and a loose loose for us mugs.

Poodroo I think this was a great post!! It is one of those topics that will affect us all at one stage or another and there is a lot of information that we don't have. As I said, I will make this a White Board topic and we will get some answers. I will contact the MTAQ and VACC to get their take on the Ethanol debate as well.

BilgeBoy

[marco]

?? Aren't we forgetting that it takes energy to make ethanol in the first place and maybe there is 10% less carbon emmissions in the burning stage BUT that 10% and in some instances probably more hydrocarbons have had to be burnt to produce the stuff in the first place!

The stuff can't be pumped, requires special transport arrangements, not forgetting the degradation of the land, water rescources etc etc. Gee with the current water situation might be some better purpose for water than irrigating ethanol crops for no overall benefitl.

This is where selective statements sound all warm and fuzz but in reality it is only shifting the souce of the hydrocarbon?

There is some evidence (depending on the sourse of the ethanol) to suggest that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than the energy that ethanol provides, which if so is really a dead duck.

Regards, Kerry.

UNLEADED AS YOU KNOW GETS REFINED QUITE A LOT SO THE QUESTION IS , DOES IT TAKE MORE TO REFINE ETHANOL THAN UNLEADED ? . THE TRANSPORT SIDE IS A VALID POINT AS BRISBANES SUPPLY OF ETHANOL COMES FROM SYDNEY OR SARINA BY TRUCK .

FOR MY MONEY THOUGH I HAVENT BEEN BOTHERED WITH THE CRAP , I HAD A CAR STOP DEAD AFTER RUNNING OPTIMAX IN IT AFTER DOING 14KMS FROM FILLING UP AND FOUND 7 OF 8 INJECTORS BLOCKED . I FOUND OUT LATER OPTIMAX CONTAINS ETHANOL AND IT IS A HARSE CLEANING AGENT AS WELL .

CHEERS
MARK

[Poodroo]

Good old Kerry...Stirs the pot just enough to keep it on the stove.

At 10% blend I wouldn't think the Hygroscopic action of Ethanonal is of that bigger concern. Engines of all types are exposed to water in many ways... pertol engines more so. Why? H2O is a byproduct of Petrol being burnt, Humidity causes condensation (worse at night) on the insides of engines and contaminates the oils etc etc. having said that, I sure would not like the E85 they run in the US.

From a political perspective....My take is this. Ethanol was the government's answer to a very big political backlash by Queensland Cain farmers. You see imported sugar is cheaper AND OUR GUYS WERE GOING BROKE!! So all of a sudden Ethanol comes on the scene (Made from sugar if I am not mistaken) and the whole thing goes quite. It was a win win for the "Grinners" and a loose loose for us mugs.

Poodroo I think this was a great post!! It is one of those topics that will affect us all at one stage or another and there is a lot of information that we don't have. As I said, I will make this a White Board topic and we will get some answers. I will contact the MTAQ and VACC to get their take on the Ethanol debate as well.

BilgeBoy

BilgeBoy I am glad someone saw this thread for what it was meant to be. I'd be really keen to here the end result of the White Board discussion.

Regards,

Poodroo

[suzygs1000]

Hey guys,

Seems to be a lot of theories about ethanol blends in this thread, where everyone has strong opinions, but no-one really seems to know much about the stuff. I have a 2007 140hp Suzy, and the owners manual says it's ok to use up to 10% blend ethanol! I think a lot of companies will say anything if they think it may stave of a future warranty claim. Maybe Suzuki have more faith in their engines than other manufacturers??

What Suzuki actually say is "Gasoline containing a maximum of 10% ethanol may be used in your outboard motor without jeopardizing the New Outboard Motor Limited Warranty." Personally, tho, I wouldn't be using it unless I had good reason.

However, use of fuels containing more than 5% methanol should not be used as they will void warranty, and even those containing only 5% must contain cosolvents and corrosion inhibitors.

I'm not even sure what the difference is between the two fuels, but maybe there is some confusion between the two?



Dave Morgan.

[Kerry]

...."Gasoline containing a maximum of 10% ethanol may be used in your outboard motor without jeopardizing the New Outboard Motor Limited Warranty."

.....However, use of fuels containing more than 5% should not be used as they will void warranty....

Maybe you could explain this one ?????

[Kerry]

yu got to be quick aroud here, no time to go back an re-edit

[suzygs1000]

Yeh, sorry Kerry, Jeez, you are quick of the mark - it reads ok now tho.

Dave.

[Kerry]

Yeah ya gotta be quick hey

But I doubt Suzzie would warranty a gut full of fuel tank insides through the engine? Which is what the first load of ethanol fuel will do, basically strip the inside of the fuel tank bare of anything soluble and shove it through the engine

Rebuid engine and a small fortune latter, no problems!

[suzygs1000]

Don't most of the new boats have the plastic fuel tanks now? Are they susceptible to the ethanol?

Dave.

[Kerry]

Ethanol and plastic fuel tanks is not a good mix, not friendly at all! Ethanol and fibreglass tanks is an absolute complete disaster!

Lets face it Ethanol is a solvent, quite corrosive and will break down a lot of fuel components! Special plastics have to be used for alchol type fuels. Is anybody making these special types of fuel tanks in Australia yet ??????

[budge]

I really don't want to get to far into the arguments as i think that a lot of statements made here are unfounded and are the effects of largely scare mongering tactics of the petroleum and political scene of eras gone by. I will keep it rather quick as you could write numerous books on the topic.

The facts are that with an environmental shift of the governments at this point of time there is going to be an implementation of some kind of ethanol based fuel, as it does offer a more eco friendly sustainable product. Although there is no doubt because of certain views of "older generations" and i do use that tern loosely, there is no way in the foreseeable future that the australian federal government will implement a mandatory E10 blend (that is my view anyway). Further more even if there was such an implementation the fact is that even though the aus ethanol production for fuel is increasing greatly there is no way that they would be able to meet the quota of a 10% blend of the some 17ish billion litres (which is probably a conservative figure) that aus uses a year.

The aus government though is serious about introducing biofuels namely e blends and has been offering tax cuts for producers as well as reimbursements for petroleum companies to introduce suitable storage infrastructure. The main gripes that many people have about ethanol are namely that it does have some solvent type properties and that is is hydrophilic (which means that molecules are attracted to water). How i see these two problems is that as for the solvent properties for many years producers of products have continually used products that are cheaper to produce and therefore have used plastics of inferior standards across the board during production. The fact is that there are many products which are defiant of these solvent properties and are widely used and are being more increasingly used in production now such as all your fuel lines your fuel tanks etc. As for the hydrophilic properties this is the one that i would be more concerned about being a boatie. Although last time i looked my fuel system was in fact a closed system, as are holding systems of suppliers therefore unless you are opening your system there is no reason why excess water should be entering. Continuing on from that thought process if you open your system using a pure petroleum based petrol you will also find water entering your system thus the use of air water separators in marine motor applications.


As for performance ethanol has a much higher octane rating that that of petroleum burns much cleaner and actually has been used as a octane enhancer for years as have other products such as toluene etc which you might go to bunnings to buy as a paint stripper for those of you that are worried about this solvent property. When tested in economy based testing it has been found that you may lose 1% in an E10 type blend, but in newer type engines this is not likely.

For the production side a lot of people throw around statements wildly but i doubt a lot of people actually know how ethanol is produced. Basically ethanol is fermented mainly from by products of our countries struggling crop farms i.e molasses, degraded sugarcane, sugarbeets, and other grains such as wheat corn etc. The science behind these processes are continually improving and there are actually small scale processes of ethanol production from plant lignins/cellulose which means in the future through refinement of these techniques ethanol may be produced from plant wastes, the post harvest remains of crops etc. The fact is though in Australia atm the price of production of ethanol just costs too much, although countries such as Brazil which lead the way in this technology produce for a much lower cost (Though our gov has protected our industry by adding huge trade tariffs to overseas ethanol products - free trade discussion a whole new argument).

So would i use E10 blends.... yep E10 is harmless the properties that people are scared about are quite minimal at this percentage blend anyway in fact you have probably been using a low % blend when filling up with premium fuels for years. Also for the older generations on here back in the wars ethanol blends were actually mandatory across our nation and only were removed again through pressure of petroleum companies on our government. So would you use E10 in a marine application yep i would and have although id say a water separator was in place... Although in saying that i would read my manufacturer warranties to check what they said to cover my ass but most manufacturers actually endorse low % blending these days and are increasingly designing their products around such fuels as they know they are the way the current market is turning.

So i've rambled on a bit and have probably missed a lot of the important questions behind the debate, if you have any other questions i will try to get back on soon and i can share my views or can point you in the direction of some factual reading material on the subject which is probably more useful for you to form an argument to yourself rather than appearing daft by throwing early 90s political and petroleum scare tactics around.

[Kerry]

....As for the hydrophilic properties this is the one that i would be more concerned about being a boatie. Although last time i looked my fuel system was in fact a closed system, as are holding systems of suppliers therefore unless you are opening your system there is no reason why excess water should be entering....

So your boat fuel system is closed? How is that setup?


So are the following figures close? If so wouldn't this indicate that Ethanol is not as energy efficient as many would have us believe?

Ethanol contains approx 76,000 Btu's per gallon (E85 contains approx 80,000Btu's per gallon) as compared to 124,800 Btu's per gallon for regular ULP and 140,000 Btu's per gallon fir diesel.

[budge]

As for a closed system all motor vehicles, marine, agricultural engines are considered to be a closed system. You have a tank with a closed cap with a breather to expel any expanding gasses. I admit that the breathers on small marine tanks are quite crude with a screw top breather but even if you are pouring large amounts of water onto this breather very minimal if any water should be up taken into the tank (If you are pouring such large amounts of water on top of the lid i'd say you were sinking and have bigger worries than how much water is going into yor fuel system). The large amounts of water which people have had problems with in the past have most times been isolated to poor storage from suppliers, who in Australia have grants available to increase their infrastructure or through excessive lengths of storage in undesirable conditions once pumped into the marine tank. This is considered poor practice in my view anyway as petroleum fuels should not even be stored for such long periods in these conditions in the first place.

As for energy contents yep ethanol is mid thirty percent lower than petroleum, but it does burn cleaner has has sulfur lower content etc. So theoretically if you use say 35% more energy than petrol then at a 10% blend you will change your economy by 3.5%. This is probably true of not more loss in economy in older carburettor vehicles though newer vehicle can be less.

But of course if you would with to run higher levels of blending such as E85 like us or other anyhydrous mixtures such as in brazil you will have to have an engine which runs slightly different components such as higher compression, alternate ignition systems or diferent cam lifts etc. The fact is that our governement has suggested a limit of E10 not E85 and as such engines
run as desired on minimal blends and you will not need 1.56 gallons as needed for E85.

You do have many valid points though, though ethanol industry in Australia (and the rest of the world) is quite young, as is the technologies that are using it. Also the education systems about products are very poor and suffer widely due to heavy slander. At present i can not see mandation of blending let alone higher % blending in Aus therefore i guess you will always have the choice of which fuel to fill up with.

[breamexplorer]

Just 2 things with Kerrys posts above
1. My 80L under floor fuel tank has stamped on the screw on cap -non venting- this would be a CLOSED SYSTEM would it not, and there is no where between the tank and the motor a (water seperating fuel filter), only an inline fuel filter (factory fitted) there is no way water can get in to the system unless i leave the cap off.
2. Doesnt the Ford Falcon have a plastic fuel tank?, last time i looked they did, they run e10 with out any problems i am aware of.

[PinHead]

1. what does the quantity of BTU's have to do with anything ?
2. I do not believe that a dilution of 1:10 of ethanol is going to be all too severe on the solvent side of things.

Common uses

Alcoholic beverages; solvent in laboratory and industry (for resins, fats, fatty acids, oils, and hydrocarbons); extraction medium; antiseptic; sedative; manufacture of perfumes, pharmaceuticals (rubbing compounds, lotions, tonics, and colognes), denatured alcohol, acetaldehyde, acetic acid, ethyl-acetate, ethylene, 2-ethyl hexanol, nitrocellulose, ethylchloride, ether, butadiene, ethylene dibromide, lacquers, plastics and plasticizers, cosmetics, rubber and rubber accelerators, aerosols, mouthwash products, soaps and cleaning preparations, polishes, dyes, adhesives, inks, preservatives, pesticides, and explosives; petrol additive/substitute; elastomers; surface coatings; antifreeze; yeast growth medium; organic synthesis; in veterinary medicine as an antiseptic, to destroy nerve tissue and as a solvent and dehydrating agent.

notice..we already drink the stuff in a diluted form