Brother-in-law fined by waterways

[Ron173]

G'day all,

My young brother-in-law has just copped an $80 fine from the waterways (NSW Maritime now) which I feel may not be justified, so thought I'd ask opinions on here, to see if he has a case.

He has an older tinnie, licensed for 4, which is kitted out with what he thought to be legal, and was fishing close inshore for flathead.

He was approached by a waterways patrol, who checked his gear, and informed him that 2 of his lifejackets were unsuitable and the other 2 just borderline.

He was fined $80 for this, which to a young lad like him is quite a lot.

My question is this:-

He had 2 jackets which were deemed ok, albeit just, but still ok, and he was only in the boat himself, so why the fine?

I always thought the rules were you had to have one for every person onboard? so he only needed 1 then?

In my opinion I thought he would only need 4, if 4 people on boat? So I'm thinking he should go to local office and complain.

Interested in opinions on this one, also he bought the boat 2nd hand from a dealer with this safety gear in it, why did dealer not advise him to purchase new stuff?

He realises the safety issue and will buy new ones but I feel hes been a bit hard done to, and a warning / advise to replace would have done easily.

Rgds

Ron

[murf]

Hi Ron

good question

I don't know what the law is but have never given it any thought until now. I know lots of people with non-complient jackets in thier boats but do have the correct # of legal jackets

is the thinking behind it that in an emergency you may grab a wrong/unfit jacket?

Cheers Murf

[finga]

Bit harsh in my opinion but we also get fined if we have out of date flares on-board even if we have in-date flares.
Good point about grabbing the wrong one though Murf. Which one would you pick if there was no time to think??

[trueblue]

Bit harsh in my opinion but we also get fined if we have out of date flares on-board even if we have in-date flares.

This is interesting. I was told by the Water police (QLD) that they couldn't say it officially, but they suggested off the record that people kept their most recently out of date flares with them so that they had the 2 sets.

They told me this when they inspected me about a year ago. They asked me to pull out my safety box and saw that I had 2 sets. One was maked clearly "OLD" and the new set had a red ribbon tied around it. Couldn't be mixed up.

The police officer told me that this was a very good idea, as he thought it a good idea to keep the old set in case you had to use the flares and ran out of flares.

Confusing.

Cheers

Mick

[seatime]

That's an excellent point raised, it applies equally to the distress flares scenario as it does to the PFDs.

If you have only one chance to grab a distress flare, or only enough time to don 1 lifejacket, you want it to be one that is in the best condition, and has the best chance of saving your life. Hence, why there is an expiry date on flares, and why there are requirements for PFDs to be in good condition and comply with regs.
All safety equipment, even if additional to requirements, must be serviceable, that is, fit for their intended purpose, and in-date.

[seatime]

This is interesting. I was told by the Water police (QLD) that they couldn't say it officially, but they suggested off the record that people kept their most recently out of date flares with them so that they had the 2 sets.

They told me this when they inspected me about a year ago. They asked me to pull out my safety box and saw that I had 2 sets. One was maked clearly "OLD" and the new set had a red ribbon tied around it. Couldn't be mixed up.

The police officer told me that this was a very good idea, as he thought it a good idea to keep the old set in case you had to use the flares and ran out of flares.

Confusing.

Cheers

Mick

Ron, a bit off topic, but I wanted to post these quotes for the Qld readers.

General Manager, MSQ : "MSQ's position on this issue is that flares, once expired, should be removed from a vessel and be disposed of appropriately. This is consistent with the advise provided in the "Guide to Recreational Boating and Fishing in Queensland".

Chief Inspector of Explosives, NRM: marine flares "kept for marine use should be disposed of when their life has expired or their condition has deteriorated. Distress flares may become dangerous as they deteriorate."

National Marine Safety Commitee: "The NMSC's agreed standards for recreational boat safety equipment, including flares, is consolidated in the National Standard for Recreational Boat Safety Equipment published in Dec 2004. Clause 3.5 specifies the requirements for the carriage, care and maintenance of safety equipment and states"Where the equipment carries a manufacturers expiry date, the equipment shall not exceed the prescribed expiry date". In addition, it seems highly improbable that MSQ, Qld Water Police or any other state regulator would have a policy that contravenes another state regulation such as that for regulated explosives".

I informed the NMSC that Qld Water Police where supplying this advise.
I have other statements from AMSA, flare manufacturers and insurance companies regarding carrying expired safety equipment, all prohibit the practice.

regards
Steve

[trueblue]

Thanks for the Info Steve. I had never really thought about it much till now.

Having fired a lot of out of date flares for training purposes overseas, I had found that flares only one period out of date had only a relatively low failure rate. I have also had brand new flares that have failed while in date.

So my thoughts were to just keep the last set of old ones - can't hurt anything to have a few spares...

Then when the copper told me that he thought it was "off the record" a good idea, I continued to do so.

From the info above though, better to buy a second set of in date flares if you want spares.

Cheers

Mick

[Ron173]

Thanks for replies, but still not quite got a definitive answer.

My reading of the site handbook pfd would read, that you must have enough for every person in vessel, whch he had.

I take the point that you may grab a bad one in emergency, very valid.

But as my boat is licensed for 5, does this mean that even on my own I must carry 5 jackets??

Ron

[peterbo3]

Hi Ron,
Perhaps a letter to NSW Waterways management is in order. There is no such standard as "borderline". Like the tyres on your car, boating safety equipment is serviceable or unserviceable. Flares are in or out of date. Lifejackets comply with or fail the appropriate standard. I think that if you are by yourself, then only one jacket needs to be on board. That is how it is in Qld.
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/resources/..._equipment.pdf

[Kerry]

....But as my boat is licensed for 5, does this mean that even on my own I must carry 5 jackets??....

As I understand this, No, one for each person actually on board but those lifejackets that are on board must be "in service".

Regards, Kerry.

[murf]

Quote from NSW Maritime web site

(Most flares have a use-by date of three years and they should be replaced before the expiry date. If your old flares appear to be in good condition keep them onboard as a backup. Once they start to look damaged, enquire with the manufacturer about the best means of disposal.)

how does that go with the explosives act???

I can find no literature on carrying the wrong type of life jacket as an extra to the correct ones for each person on board.

were the PFDs 1 or 2? if the officer could not tell if they were PFD1 and they needed to be PFD1s is this why the fine or were they correct style but just ratty?

I would be writing a letter stating your case. IMO the fine was harsh if your life jacket was the correct one and servicable.

Cheers Murf

[seatime]

Interpretation is most likely the key to these issues.

There is still the skipper's duty of care to uphold. As PFDs are "safety equipment" they must be carried and maintained as other safety equipment, even if they are additional to minimum requirements. They would need to be appropriate for the intended activity and area of operation, and meet the assessed risks of the activity. To give you the best chance of survival and rescue if required.

Would we be allowed to load up our boats with expired EPIRBs, damaged liferafts with expired hydrostatic releases, or even broken radios, Capt Cook's charts and a compass from a Bata Scout school shoe?. No, because we aren't equipping our boats with gear that meets the risks assessed for the intended activity.
These regs, in most cases, have been developed in response to the findings of investigations into marine accidents and fatalities.

The NMSC National Standards for Rec Boating Safety Equipment is a good, but not exhaustive guide for gear to carry. Each state and territory marine agency is represented on the committee.

regards
Steve.

[gone_fishing]

this is a interesting topic Ron
and was told by a waterways officer
" if its in the boat it must be to acceptible standards of its manufactured purpose "
as i have 4 good life jakets in my 12'boat 3 still in bags that got the raised eyebrow treatment and 1 old still intake jacket straped to my seat to stop flat but syndrome which i was asked to removed as it is a life jacket and shouldnt be used otherwise
so on your brother in law i think he may have been hard done by but probably failed to meet the saftey requirments of the boat i would write away
have always wondered aboutmy mate that i take fishing cause even though i got jackets i dont think they would make one that can carry 180kg + betcha that will be a fine for me one day

[gone_fishing]

just another 2cents

saftey first saftey last

[marco]

Ron ,
checkout this site http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/ma...inforce/NONE/0

and this http://www.waterways.nsw.gov.au/usee...ml#lifejackets

i had a look at the nsw legislation and from what i have read the requirement is for each person on board to have a life jackets that complies with the act and considering there is only one person then his legal obligations were met. Have a read and qoute the relevent clauses in the act when your brother inlaw writes his letter , in short if it is not legislation they cannot fine you .
cheers
mark